Early Ligna rotary trumpet
Jul 22nd, 2023
From Brasspedia, it looks like the Ligna brand came from Ligna S.A., established in 1949, primarily for wood import/export [one such catalog listing products ranging from gym flooring to guitars]. The firm would become state-controlled in time, and the Lignatone brand evolved from this. However, there are some Ligna-branded instruments out there, like this rotary trumpet likely made in an Amati-Kraslice shop:
The Zottola-esque mouthpiece exterior is seen with various Czech and East German horns - I know nothing about them other than the shape has some variance, and various number models exist [I have one or two "7"s, with straight-sided med-shallow V cups].
The Bohemian Lion logo is a bit different than the well-known Lignatone/Supraphon types, but definitely recognizable.
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Horns of Uncertain Pedigree Topics
More Amati model numbers Posts
Re: More Amati model numbers
I would guess 1960s-1970s, mostly because the model numbers used appear in conjunction with older export marks [Ligna, Bohland & Fuchs for the 2551, etc.] and line up with the model numbers in the Lignatone catalog - if I could see the serial on the valve trombone, it would help. The mouthpieces shown look proprietary, versus the Bach imitations in later catalogs that were produced into the 1990s.
Instead of Ligna or Artia, MusicExport is given as the clearinghouse, but with a logo I've not seen much [the integral/F-soundhole and Czech lion]. Artia supposedly exported instruments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artia_%28publisher%29#cite_note-what-is-artia-3
but I don't think they were exclusive in doing so [and they were all made at the same factories].
I'll see if I can purchase these and scan at higher resolution as well...
I would guess 1960s-1970s, mostly because the model numbers used appear in conjunction with older export marks [Ligna, Bohland & Fuchs for the 2551, etc.] and line up with the model numbers in the Lignatone catalog - if I could see the serial on the valve trombone, it would help. The mouthpieces shown look proprietary, versus the Bach imitations in later catalogs that were produced into the 1990s.
Instead of Ligna or Artia, MusicExport is given as the clearinghouse, but with a logo I've not seen much [the integral/F-soundhole and Czech lion]. Artia supposedly exported instruments
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artia_%28publisher%29#cite_note-what-is-artia-3
but I don't think they were exclusive in doing so [and they were all made at the same factories].
I'll see if I can purchase these and scan at higher resolution as well...
Re: More Amati model numbers
https://aukro.cz/stary-letak-nabidka-musical-instruments-kraslice-7051818196
If the account verification would work [possibly broken due to maintenance], I'd also grab this.
Especially interesting is the old-looking 200P pocket cornet, with the 1st slide ports set like prewar models [nearly facing the camera, making for a longer slide, unlike most I've seen] - as well as "Artia - the only exporter of Czechoslovak musical instruments", making this probably ca. 1960s...
https://aukro.cz/stary-letak-nabidka-musical-instruments-kraslice-7051818196
If the account verification would work [possibly broken due to maintenance], I'd also grab this.
Especially interesting is the old-looking 200P pocket cornet, with the 1st slide ports set like prewar models [nearly facing the camera, making for a longer slide, unlike most I've seen] - as well as "Artia - the only exporter of Czechoslovak musical instruments", making this probably ca. 1960s...
Re: More Amati model numbers
...and more still! No model numbers, but interesting to see concurrent model names/series, and MusicExport is listed, so probably closer to 1970s...
https://aukro.cz/stary-letak-nabidka-mistrovske-nastroje-7051911332
https://aukro.cz/stary-letak-nabidka-mistrovske-nastroje-7051818462
...and more still! No model numbers, but interesting to see concurrent model names/series, and MusicExport is listed, so probably closer to 1970s...
https://aukro.cz/stary-letak-nabidka-mistrovske-nastroje-7051911332
https://aukro.cz/stary-letak-nabidka-mistrovske-nastroje-7051818462
Re: Amati-Kraslice model 2404 trumpet, ca. 1950s-1960s
Hopefully there will be some corroborating information in one of the Amati brochures arriving; the Lignatone catalog is a great start, but raises more questions as to what the different variations are from model to model, and why...
Conn reused parts and templates quite a lot, with a combination of factors, but one can map out what changed on each level [and see what did not - in the 1960s, trumpets often had a 0.438" bore from the 15B up through the 38B, and the basic valve block was the same from 77B to 38B, with some brass stems and parts exchanged for the 8B, etc.].
For Amati, what were they doing?
Hopefully there will be some corroborating information in one of the Amati brochures arriving; the Lignatone catalog is a great start, but raises more questions as to what the different variations are from model to model, and why...
Conn reused parts and templates quite a lot, with a combination of factors, but one can map out what changed on each level [and see what did not - in the 1960s, trumpets often had a 0.438" bore from the 15B up through the 38B, and the basic valve block was the same from 77B to 38B, with some brass stems and parts exchanged for the 8B, etc.].
For Amati, what were they doing?
Re: Amati-Kraslice model 2404 trumpet, ca. 1950s-1960s Different horn but this was the "anchor hook" stamp symbol [note the caps, mostly just used on the Consul]
...and by 1976 when Amati incremented trumpet model numbers by 40, for some reason, this model acquired a folded-flat bell rim as opposed to the garland, becoming the 2444. The 2503 and 2543 still have the large nickel garland, however.
...and by 1976 when Amati incremented trumpet model numbers by 40, for some reason, this model acquired a folded-flat bell rim as opposed to the garland, becoming the 2444. The 2503 and 2543 still have the large nickel garland, however.
Conn 212A International cornet [Amati-Kraslice ACR-252 stencil] <r>This is a Conn 212A Eb Cornet
Bore: .460 Bell:4-1/2in AVAILABLE ONLY IN EUROPE Conn International was one of several ways UMI marketed stencils under their flagship brands - and is basically a straight Amati stencil.
Conn International was one of several ways UMI marketed stencils under their flagship brands - the 201B[Y/R] were Taiwanese Hoxon-made trumpets, of which the 201BY morphed into the 27B Director, the 202BY was an Amati-Kraslice stencil, the 97T was an Amati pocket trumpet, etc. Some were officially only available in Europe, and some European models were handled through UMI's Musica Steyr branch in Austria. A similar track existed for King-branded horns, like the T201Y becoming the 301 Tempo.
Bore: .460 Bell:4-1/2in AVAILABLE ONLY IN EUROPE Conn International was one of several ways UMI marketed stencils under their flagship brands - and is basically a straight Amati stencil.
Conn International was one of several ways UMI marketed stencils under their flagship brands - the 201B[Y/R] were Taiwanese Hoxon-made trumpets, of which the 201BY morphed into the 27B Director, the 202BY was an Amati-Kraslice stencil, the 97T was an Amati pocket trumpet, etc. Some were officially only available in Europe, and some European models were handled through UMI's Musica Steyr branch in Austria. A similar track existed for King-branded horns, like the T201Y becoming the 301 Tempo.
[earlier iteration of a model seen here] - Circe Consul trumpet <r>Yes, there is an Amati-Kraslice Consul trumpet here, but as the catalogs and brochures help illustrate, the Consul model evolved over the years. Bob Woodruff owns a few, some with the Bach/Blessing pistons, others with the later G3 "Meister" pistons [barrel-cased springs, but with a guide at the barrel bottom].
"
This example, serial 1286, explicitly has the Circe brand name and Consul engraved similarly to others at the time - neighboring examples don't have Amati anywhere, just Consul at the same angle. Circe was usually just stamped on mouthpieces, from what I've seen.
Photos at
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1QjHwHMeG5WlSYC2P7es_xPYVZ82Jr8Nq?usp=drive_link
https://trumpetboards.com/topic/1423/help-me-identify-this-trumpet-ciicel-consul
https://trumpetboards.com/topic/1423/he ... cel-consul
showing before-and-after polishing
https://aukro.cz/trubka-consul-7056211990
shows a horn with a different style bell engraving and shorter [modified?] receiver.
Next "Consul / Amati-Kraslice / MADE IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA" was being engraved on the bell, and
https://www.ebay.de/itm/145616169173
has the garland/tone ring. Soon that will disappear, and at least one has the model number 2600 instead, indicating a change of sorts. I have one with a 13xx serial that has Consul & Amati branding, no tone ring, and Bach/Blessing type pistons.
"
This example, serial 1286, explicitly has the Circe brand name and Consul engraved similarly to others at the time - neighboring examples don't have Amati anywhere, just Consul at the same angle. Circe was usually just stamped on mouthpieces, from what I've seen.
Photos at
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1QjHwHMeG5WlSYC2P7es_xPYVZ82Jr8Nq?usp=drive_link
https://trumpetboards.com/topic/1423/help-me-identify-this-trumpet-ciicel-consul
https://trumpetboards.com/topic/1423/he ... cel-consul
showing before-and-after polishing
https://aukro.cz/trubka-consul-7056211990
shows a horn with a different style bell engraving and shorter [modified?] receiver.
Next "Consul / Amati-Kraslice / MADE IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA" was being engraved on the bell, and
https://www.ebay.de/itm/145616169173
has the garland/tone ring. Soon that will disappear, and at least one has the model number 2600 instead, indicating a change of sorts. I have one with a 13xx serial that has Consul & Amati branding, no tone ring, and Bach/Blessing type pistons.
Re: King Amati-Kraslice stencil trumpet - Models 2404/2503/2543 The "Olds" - only pics I have, but it was definitely Amati with a 1970s serial [and the bell engraving pattern is a common one they used for stencils - one of four or five] - Lignatone 2400 or 2440 type stencil
Re: Odd King; Amati-Kraslice stencil trumpet - Models 2404/2503/2543
The guy who was selling it [years ago] didn't even bother to mark it as Sold when it was gone, so there's that...
Though I will say - my Arioso Super purchased NOS [model B-2580] is one of my most responsive horns. It was assembled by Lidl in Brno, and it has the bell rim rolled past the wire and soldered [either French or Italian rim]. Valves are a little unreliable, but very good once auxiliary bottom springs are added...! My 2551/B-1038 "Wonderphone/Connquest" imitation cornets also sound quite nice, and my B-226 flugelhorn is overall excellent. While Amati made a lot of bad instruments, some are fantastic!
The "King" at least stands a chance of playability since the 2404 and 25xx platforms were higher-end than the 2400 itself. The "Olds" is basically a 2400 and could be a crap-shoot...
The guy who was selling it [years ago] didn't even bother to mark it as Sold when it was gone, so there's that...
Though I will say - my Arioso Super purchased NOS [model B-2580] is one of my most responsive horns. It was assembled by Lidl in Brno, and it has the bell rim rolled past the wire and soldered [either French or Italian rim]. Valves are a little unreliable, but very good once auxiliary bottom springs are added...! My 2551/B-1038 "Wonderphone/Connquest" imitation cornets also sound quite nice, and my B-226 flugelhorn is overall excellent. While Amati made a lot of bad instruments, some are fantastic!
The "King" at least stands a chance of playability since the 2404 and 25xx platforms were higher-end than the 2400 itself. The "Olds" is basically a 2400 and could be a crap-shoot...
KHS started making trumpets under the Swallow name in 1957. They made many thousands of stencil horns of varying quality [i.e. many of them bad] and eventually hit a stride in the late 1970s, establishing Jupiter in 1979. I've collected a few hundred serial numbers and noted a few trends, base models, and many of the designs produced were discontinued in the 1970s and 1980s: the Conn 3B herald trumpet clone, the Conn 15B clone [Jupiter STR-100 and a billion stencil names], etc.
While I recognize it's a minefield in various ways...is there any point in adding KHS as a manufacturer?
We have Martin Busine as a maker [and the Cornet on file looks like a mid-1960s Blessing Standard], and Martin Busine appears on Schenkelaars, Amati-Kraslice, KHS, and Boehm-Meinl instruments...
Many of those brands seem to have run through the Czech and West German stencils, then switched to KHS [and even mainland-Chinese firms] due to price. We have Selmer London's Melody Maker line, etc.
While I recognize it's a minefield in various ways...is there any point in adding KHS as a manufacturer?
We have Martin Busine as a maker [and the Cornet on file looks like a mid-1960s Blessing Standard], and Martin Busine appears on Schenkelaars, Amati-Kraslice, KHS, and Boehm-Meinl instruments...
Many of those brands seem to have run through the Czech and West German stencils, then switched to KHS [and even mainland-Chinese firms] due to price. We have Selmer London's Melody Maker line, etc.
King Amati-Kraslice stencil trumpet - Models 2404/2503/2543 You are confirming what I was suspecting. Unlike some of the false Bessons et. al. these horns have the bones to be a viable instrument, they are just trying to steal reputation from a more established maker.
That makes it a bit more complex. It might have been an easier call back when the makers were a bit more silo'ed Although, there were always stencils, but that is a bit different. But when brand names who used to make their own are now using other makers, but aren't faulted for being stencil-ers.
That makes it a bit more complex. It might have been an easier call back when the makers were a bit more silo'ed Although, there were always stencils, but that is a bit different. But when brand names who used to make their own are now using other makers, but aren't faulted for being stencil-ers.
Re: Odd King; Amati-Kraslice stencil trumpet - Models 2404/2503/2543
You are confirming what I was suspecting. Unlike some of the false Bessons et. al. these horns have the bones to be a viable instrument, they are just trying to steal reputation from a more established maker.
That makes it a bit more complex. It might have been an easier call back when the makers were a bit more silo'ed Although, there were always stencils, but that is a bit different. But when brand names who used to make their own are now using other makers, but aren't faulted for being stencil-ers.
and Amati was embroiled in that since their founding - as we're familiar with, Amati used its constituent firms' brand names until they were sued...! They definitely tried to establish a global trademark with Lignatone, but the products were just not consistent enough. Much like some modern horns, a thorough going-over or rebuild can greatly improve some old Amati-Kraslice horns, but if it's the cheap, low-end model, is it even worth it? For the pro horns, I would say yes.
In a strange twist of irony, NEMC actually had Amati legitimately produce some of their Olds NA100ZU and Reynolds TR500 ZU trumpets in the early 2000s...
You are confirming what I was suspecting. Unlike some of the false Bessons et. al. these horns have the bones to be a viable instrument, they are just trying to steal reputation from a more established maker.
That makes it a bit more complex. It might have been an easier call back when the makers were a bit more silo'ed Although, there were always stencils, but that is a bit different. But when brand names who used to make their own are now using other makers, but aren't faulted for being stencil-ers.
and Amati was embroiled in that since their founding - as we're familiar with, Amati used its constituent firms' brand names until they were sued...! They definitely tried to establish a global trademark with Lignatone, but the products were just not consistent enough. Much like some modern horns, a thorough going-over or rebuild can greatly improve some old Amati-Kraslice horns, but if it's the cheap, low-end model, is it even worth it? For the pro horns, I would say yes.
In a strange twist of irony, NEMC actually had Amati legitimately produce some of their Olds NA100ZU and Reynolds TR500 ZU trumpets in the early 2000s...
Not yet in database? Amati-Kraslice ACR-241 pocket cornet
This was basically modeled on the 1920s pre-war design that appeared as the Bohland & Fuchs Kraslice post-war version -
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.814953501902250&type=3&_rdr
- which was in the Ligna 1949 catalog and Artia 1967 catalog as 200P, then improved as the B-1041 by the 1970s-1980s. The 1st slide was bent differently and the inner slide shortened to allow easy removal with the slide flat against the valve casings, versus the angled 1st slide of the 200P type. This of course was the basis for the ATR-304 and ATR-314, none of which are made anymore. The ATR-314 replacement parts sheet is available at
https://www.buckeyebrassandwinds.com/Images/ATR%20314.PDF
using the 304 stock image still.
Per the 1980s spec sheet: 95mm bell diameter, 230mm length, 1kg weight, 11.7mm bore [0.460"]*
Serial 795015 with paperwork indicating it was made in 1991**
*the ATR-314 was more like 0.438" last I checked, and the 1st slide worked with my 1972 Conn 6B
https://www.pocketcornets.com/html/amati_pocket_cornet.html
would indicate 810534 serial is from 1973, though it's not clear if this example was built later with old parts, or if the 8 was really a misread/badly-stamped 6 - if 610534, it could be later 1970s
IMG>
This was basically modeled on the 1920s pre-war design that appeared as the Bohland & Fuchs Kraslice post-war version -
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.814953501902250&type=3&_rdr
- which was in the Ligna 1949 catalog and Artia 1967 catalog as 200P, then improved as the B-1041 by the 1970s-1980s. The 1st slide was bent differently and the inner slide shortened to allow easy removal with the slide flat against the valve casings, versus the angled 1st slide of the 200P type. This of course was the basis for the ATR-304 and ATR-314, none of which are made anymore. The ATR-314 replacement parts sheet is available at
https://www.buckeyebrassandwinds.com/Images/ATR%20314.PDF
using the 304 stock image still.
Per the 1980s spec sheet: 95mm bell diameter, 230mm length, 1kg weight, 11.7mm bore [0.460"]*
Serial 795015 with paperwork indicating it was made in 1991**
*the ATR-314 was more like 0.438" last I checked, and the 1st slide worked with my 1972 Conn 6B
https://www.pocketcornets.com/html/amati_pocket_cornet.html
would indicate 810534 serial is from 1973, though it's not clear if this example was built later with old parts, or if the 8 was really a misread/badly-stamped 6 - if 610534, it could be later 1970s
IMG>
https://reverb.com/item/39155694-martin-busine-trumpet-brass-silver &
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/martin-busine-trumpet-bach-7c-3785670855 are Musica Steyr-clearinghouse stencils, made by Amati-Kraslice
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/martin-busine-trumpet-bach-7c-3785670855 are Musica Steyr-clearinghouse stencils, made by Amati-Kraslice
Amati-Kraslice ATR-305 trumpet Continuation of the "Excelent" [sic] reverse-leadpipe models, made ca. 1990s
