Patent Dates
Feb 16th, 2007
I ran across an interesting chart in a banjo & mandolin site...
it lists the first patent number of each year to provide dating information!
PATENT NUMBERS AND DATES
http://www.mugwumps.com/patents.htm
Reply #1 - Feb 16th, 2007
If a horn is labeled "pat. 1910" how young could it be?
How long do these run?
Reply #2 - Feb 17th, 2007
Well, obviously if it has a date, it can't be any older than the date. I know that you can renew patents, but I'm not sure if there's a limit to it.
These are useful for dating if you only have the patent number itself.
Once you have the date, you know what year to look at if you are looking for it, and the horn cannot be any older.
Reply #3 - Feb 17th, 2007,
Yes, that’s true. And from what you have said earlier, I shouldn’t be able to find a horn made in 1910, with the label stating Pat. 1910. But if I find a York with the LP doughnut with just a "Pat. Pending" then we can assume it’s from 1910 to maybe even 1913. Only because we know the LP doughnut’s patent is from 1910.
What was the story with the compensating system? Didn't the patent just run out in the 1990's?
Reply #4 - Feb 17th, 2007
Well, I would assume that one could receive a patent in January of 1910, and put the "pat" information as soon as you received it, built later in 1910.
I don't know of any requirement to change the label, so all I think that a "pat. pend." label means that it COULD be as old as the application. And that is why I included both the application date and the granted date.
On the patents I've added, and with the spirit of the site, I only added patents issued up until 1920-1930. There are a ton of later ones that I did not address. On the images that I was looking at, I'm not sure that they have the same kind of assignment information, either.
I do not know how often you can renew a patent, or similar information. I am not a lawyer, nor do I even play one on TV, and I'm sure that this probably makes copyright law look easy by comparison.
Reply #5 - Feb 19th, 2007
The question that I come up with is; how long after a patent is issued does it become 'public domain', and can it be renewed an unlimited number of times?
Reply #6 - Feb 25th, 2007
In the US the length of time for a patent depends on two things.
1. The type of patent - Design or Utility.
2. When the patent was filed- Before or after 8 June 1995.
Design patents are only good for 14 years.
Utility patents are good for 17 years after award or 20 years after filing whichever is longer unless they were filed before 8 June 1995. Utility patents filed before that date are valid for 17 years from the date of issue.
This change in patent terms brought the US into harmonization with the rest of the world.
Design patents are for appearance.
Utility patents are for the mechanism, device, or process.
They are not renewable and to utilize the maximum term, the patent holder or assignee must make regular payments to the patent office.
For more information on patents go to
http://www.uspto.gov
- Legal disclaimer - I am not a patent professional, I am a knowledgeable individual who works with patents on a regular basis.
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Re: Patents
4x (double) trombone slide (1901)
TROMBONE
(Double slide)
Patent number: 673983
Filing date: Jan 17, 1898
Issue date: May 14, 1901
Inventor: EDWARD T. PIERCE
Reply #1 - May 18th,
Olds made a version of this horn. It was called the quato...it's very similar to this.
Reply #2 - May 18th, 2009
The problem with doubling a tenor slide is basically the same problem that the soprano trombone has. The slide positions are so close together that it is hard to accurately hit them in any rapid passages. The quatro positions, I believe, would be the same distance apart as on the soprano.
Reply #3 - May 19th, 2009,
The Quadro is sold by the "new" Olds (the one in New Jersey) and by Music Market Products, Inc. out of Lake Geneva, WI, USA.
Quadro Trombone
I suspect the horn is made by DEG Music Products.
Note that the Quadro differs from the subject patent in that is does not use two full-width crooks at the far end of the slide; it uses two narrow crooks, connecting top tube to top tube and bottom tube to bottom tube (rather than top-to-bottom and top-to-bottom as in the Pierce patent).
Miraphone BBb contrabass trombones do use a system like the Pierce patent. Of course, they don't suffer from having positions too close together, since the horn is twice as long.
One issue with double slides is that you must make up for the length of the additional crooks. You'll notice that Pierce's drawing appears to depict a shortened bell section. I suspect that might be at least part of the reasoning behind the Quadro design.
Reply #4 - May 20th, 2009
It's interesting the way they market these. If you read the description on that link, they market them for kids just learning the Trombone, marchers, and professionals? They also claim the design is more durable, less easy to break...It seems kind of fragile to me.
Reply #5 - May 20th, 2009
The issue of maintenance and repair occurred to me. The main difficulty with trombones is keeping the slides parallel and straight. And with a double slide, the difficulty would be quadrupled. In addition to maintaining alignment of the inner and outer slide, in alignment with one other set of slides; it must also be parallel with two others, and this must be replicated with all other three slides.
Reply #6 - May 20th, 2009
I know the Miraphone contras are looked upon with some hostility by repair techs because it's a pain to get the slides working well.
The Quadro would be somewhat less prone to damage simply because it's shorter, but fixing a damaged one would not be a picnic.
Reply #7 - May 20th, 2009
That's very true. Not only that the shorter slide would be less likely to get itself into trouble, but also because there would be less surface to keep in repair.
Reply #8 - May 21st, 2009
This pat. does not dictate any size restraints such as alto, tenor or contrabass. If you read the last page, this is the meat that will either feed you or let you starve. In this case, you have the funny handle, the double spit valve, and the tuning in the bottom of the double slide as the main indications.
I don’t recall seeing any double slides within slide tuning.
Reply #9 - May 21st, 2009,
OH, my! That would be a nightmare!
Reply #10 - Jun 1st, 2009,
And that (in part) is what this pat. is for.
Reply #11 - Jun 1st, 2009,
I see what you are saying. But they are being clever about it, they put the in-slide tuning at the bottom of the slides past where the inner tube operates, so that portion doesn't need to be as precisely aligned. Pretty creative. Certainly, deserving of being rewarded with the patent, I would say.
Reply #12 - Jun 2nd, 2009,
Is this an Eb horn? I've seen a few horns like this that were an Eb double-slide trombone, with a short slide like an alto, only doubled.
Oops- sorry, in re-reading I realize this is a Bb tenor.
In any event, the double-slide Eb horns' slide positions were about where they should be. I wish someone would start making them again!
Reply #13 - Jun 2nd, 2009, at 11:00pm
An Eb Bass 4x slide trombone? Never seen one of those.
4x (double) trombone slide (1901)
TROMBONE
(Double slide)
Patent number: 673983
Filing date: Jan 17, 1898
Issue date: May 14, 1901
Inventor: EDWARD T. PIERCE
Reply #1 - May 18th,
Olds made a version of this horn. It was called the quato...it's very similar to this.
Reply #2 - May 18th, 2009
The problem with doubling a tenor slide is basically the same problem that the soprano trombone has. The slide positions are so close together that it is hard to accurately hit them in any rapid passages. The quatro positions, I believe, would be the same distance apart as on the soprano.
Reply #3 - May 19th, 2009,
The Quadro is sold by the "new" Olds (the one in New Jersey) and by Music Market Products, Inc. out of Lake Geneva, WI, USA.
Quadro Trombone
I suspect the horn is made by DEG Music Products.
Note that the Quadro differs from the subject patent in that is does not use two full-width crooks at the far end of the slide; it uses two narrow crooks, connecting top tube to top tube and bottom tube to bottom tube (rather than top-to-bottom and top-to-bottom as in the Pierce patent).
Miraphone BBb contrabass trombones do use a system like the Pierce patent. Of course, they don't suffer from having positions too close together, since the horn is twice as long.
One issue with double slides is that you must make up for the length of the additional crooks. You'll notice that Pierce's drawing appears to depict a shortened bell section. I suspect that might be at least part of the reasoning behind the Quadro design.
Reply #4 - May 20th, 2009
It's interesting the way they market these. If you read the description on that link, they market them for kids just learning the Trombone, marchers, and professionals? They also claim the design is more durable, less easy to break...It seems kind of fragile to me.
Reply #5 - May 20th, 2009
The issue of maintenance and repair occurred to me. The main difficulty with trombones is keeping the slides parallel and straight. And with a double slide, the difficulty would be quadrupled. In addition to maintaining alignment of the inner and outer slide, in alignment with one other set of slides; it must also be parallel with two others, and this must be replicated with all other three slides.
Reply #6 - May 20th, 2009
I know the Miraphone contras are looked upon with some hostility by repair techs because it's a pain to get the slides working well.
The Quadro would be somewhat less prone to damage simply because it's shorter, but fixing a damaged one would not be a picnic.
Reply #7 - May 20th, 2009
That's very true. Not only that the shorter slide would be less likely to get itself into trouble, but also because there would be less surface to keep in repair.
Reply #8 - May 21st, 2009
This pat. does not dictate any size restraints such as alto, tenor or contrabass. If you read the last page, this is the meat that will either feed you or let you starve. In this case, you have the funny handle, the double spit valve, and the tuning in the bottom of the double slide as the main indications.
I don’t recall seeing any double slides within slide tuning.
Reply #9 - May 21st, 2009,
OH, my! That would be a nightmare!
Reply #10 - Jun 1st, 2009,
And that (in part) is what this pat. is for.
Reply #11 - Jun 1st, 2009,
I see what you are saying. But they are being clever about it, they put the in-slide tuning at the bottom of the slides past where the inner tube operates, so that portion doesn't need to be as precisely aligned. Pretty creative. Certainly, deserving of being rewarded with the patent, I would say.
Reply #12 - Jun 2nd, 2009,
Is this an Eb horn? I've seen a few horns like this that were an Eb double-slide trombone, with a short slide like an alto, only doubled.
Oops- sorry, in re-reading I realize this is a Bb tenor.
In any event, the double-slide Eb horns' slide positions were about where they should be. I wish someone would start making them again!
Reply #13 - Jun 2nd, 2009, at 11:00pm
An Eb Bass 4x slide trombone? Never seen one of those.