metals and finishes
Lacquered Brass
May 6th, 2005,
As one means of dating instruments, the way the horn was finished could be one method. If anyone has any information on when horns in production were first regularly silverplated, or when horns were first Lacquered, please share.
One story is that lacquering was a way to cheapen production during the depression.
Lacking definitive information, please reply if you have a horn with original lacquer earlier than 1929.
As for silverplate, the oldest horn I have around here is an old Conn saxophone made in 1898. Now, I know there will be older silverplate horns than that, but it is a starting point.
Reply #1 - May 6th, 2005,
For silverplate: F. Besson Bb cornet, Louis Schreiber sole U.S. agent, serial 24354, 1875-1883.
For lacquer: F. Besson circular alto, serial 48236, 1890-1895 and F. Holton tenor trombone, Revelation, serial 8375, 1909. Both are lacquered brass and seem to be original.
Reply #2 - Aug 3rd, 2005,
Lacquer on brass instruments started around WW1. A possible reason could be the lack of high-quality brass. Up to ca. 1910, brass for brass winds was made of an alloy of at least 63% copper, the rest being mainly zinc. Such a copper alloy does not require lacquer, as it will stay bright for a long time when polished.
Around the time of WW1 brass alloys with lower copper content came in use, now worth only some 50% of copper, or little more. This alloy would oxidize faster, therefore the lacquer. After WW1 this alloy may have proved useful in another way, because brass with 53% copper is easier to handle in semi-automated processes, becoming more common around that time.
Brass with up to 55% content of copper makes many small, short chips when being handled in a cutting process, that would be more suitable than the longer chips caused by the alloys with a higher copper share. Also, some deforming could happen to these alloys with higher feed speeds.
I have a Russian trumpet dating from around 1960-1970 and the brass of this instrument only has a copper share of some 40 or 45 %. The lacquer was very weak, and once you have polished that instrument, and have finished, you can start over again, well almost.
While lacquer on instruments earlier than 1900 - 1910 is rare, silver plating has taken place for some time before the turn of that century.
I have serviced instruments dating from ca 1860 to 1890, where these instruments have been silver plated from the first moment. Instruments that were silver plated later in their life often were plated in one piece, leaving raw brass behind the solder joints.
At least that is what I have experienced.
Reply #3 - Aug 3rd, 2005,
Thank you for the chemistry perspective. That makes things clearer than just that they "cheapened" up the brass. And, so there were some other manufacturing benefits as well.
One must wonder whether the sound quality was affected by the change in materials. (Well, I guess I would assume it would to a certain degree, but it is possible that the difference was negligible, or even an improvement!)
The German (nickel) silver instruments certainly have been around a long time. I don't know what that process was either, do you? Nor, when it was phased out.
Which is a roundabout way of leaving on the table the question of when silverplating began to be common practice.
Reply #4 - Aug 4th, 2005
Hi Kim. I have a question for you:
My oldest 20th century horns (which I no longer own, so I don't have them handy to look at) seem to have been made from two sheets fused together, rather than being plated.
A King Liberty C/Bb/A trumpet I inherited was such an example. Either it's just that the silver plate was very thick, or else the bell was fused together in three pieces: the outside silver, the inside brass, and the gold-plated brass inside the bell. There certainly looked to be three distinct pieces that had somehow been fused together.
Also, the bells of many instruments around that time, my King Liberty included, had a thick ring of silver around the bell, but where it was worn through at the edge was where there seemed to be two separate sheets of metal, outer and inner.
Any thoughts on how these horns were constructed?
Also- as far as 19th century horns go, where trombones are concerned, the ideal, at least in the Germanic horns I've liked, seemed to be to go for a softer alloy and thinner metal, which produces a dense, saturated sound at low volume. The more modern US-made horns like Conn, Olds and King are notorious for using thicker, harder metal, which doesn't perform well at low volume, and which has a hard core at the center of the sound.
Would you happen to know, in technical terms, what the difference in metals is? Such as the various hardness’s and the resulting type of sounds they produce. And how does the element of thickness interact with various hardness’s?
Reply #5 - Aug 5th, 2005, at
It is my conviction that the material is important to the tone. Not necessarily that the cheaper brass makes a bad tone, but it makes another tone. I have a cornet made of brass with some 72-75% copper share, and the tone is very different compared to the trumpet with 45% copper share. Comparing trumpets and cornets that way is not the right thing, but I will make it worse, by comparing it to a Fluegel horn with a bell made of pure lead. The tone of that Fluegel horn seemed to come from somewhere far away, it had very little "metal" sound. It was my master who sometimes made such strange things like a Fluegel horn in lead.
The nickel-plated instruments probably went out because of the risk of nickel allergy. Nickel plated instruments were still made in the 1960's and the awful sounding eastern-German schalmei's probably up to 1990. They are not brass winds come to that.
The kind of "thick" silver plating is called dry plating, I do not know how it is made, but it is the method that silversmiths use for silver plating of baby shoes. This method could have been used to make stronger and more wear-proof plating. Furthermore, a common problem by the wet silver plating process is that microscopic bubbles of moist get enclosed under the plating and trough time causes corrosion between the original brass ant he plated layer. This problem would be avoided with the dry plating.
Regarding material thickness, I have a paper-thin BBb tuba (1873), it only weighs 4 kilo. It is easy to play at low volumes, and easy to play at all, as if it requires much less energy to play than my 12-kilo heavy Boosey & Co. BBb helicon (1901). Again, these two instruments are also made of two different brass alloys. The 1873 tuba is made of an alloy that my master would call crispbread brass, while the Boosey helicon is made of a normal 63% Copper brass common at that time.
I do not have any scientific proof for these statements, they are just my personal experience.
Reply #6 - Aug 5th, 2005,
"Crispbread" is a term I've never heard before. Any idea what it might mean,
Reply #7 - Aug 6th, 2005
It was a kind of slang for some brass of rather poor quality that was used for some brass winds in the late 1800's. The brass tends to break like crispbread, and repairs are quite difficult. But it makes a good tone!
Reply #8 - Dec 4th, 2005,
I have seen trade catalogs that list silver-plating as an option but none of these catalogs date from before 1870. Most brass instruments made before then were never plated. I have always thought that lacquering dated from WWI, but never found any proof. I've seen an OTS horn that someone lacquered! Nickel silver dates from toward the end of the 19th century. Though, it was invented centuries earlier in China. Europe was just a little behind the times on that technology.
Reply #9 - Dec 4th, 2005,
Some Civil War horns are nickel silver. Strattons are but one example.
Reply #10 - Dec 5th, 2005,
One of my Besson Euph's (1907) looks gold.
I previously had thought that this was the original lacquer, but the buff job under the lacquer is very poor. I believe that someone lacquered the horn later in its life. The horn darkened and the lacquer darkened to make the nice gold color. When the lacquer fakes off, the horn is still dark and the lacquer is very yellow.
My other Besson dates from 1893 and is very poor silver plating. All the Besson 5-valve (sax horn style) I have seen have been silver (that’s a whole 5 horns).
"Margaret" was my favorite York cornet dating from 1907. I wish I had that horn. It was gold plated, engraved with the the name "Margaret" on the bell. The horn played wonderfully. If you see her send me a pic.
Reply #11 - Sep 12th, 2006,
I just picked up this Conn Baritone Serial#171684 (c. 1920). It has a dark lacquered finish. The horn is in pretty good shape, but the finish is ugly. So, this could be an early version of a Conn Lacquering? Does anyone know whether Conn started out with dark lacquer?
Reply #12 - Oct 16th,
I saw a comment on another board that lacquer wasn't an option on instruments until the development of the spray gun. The date the person quoted was clearly off, but the idea is plausible. Anyone have any idea when the spray gun was invented?
Reply #13 - Oct 16th, 2006,
Wikipedia/Airbrush: "The first airbrush was invented in 1879 by Abner Peeler... The first modern type airbrush came along in 1893, presented by Thayer and Chandler art materials company at the World Columbian Exposition in Chicago, invented by Charles Burdick."
"The airbrush led to the development of the spray gun, a larger, more industrial type of paint applicator used for larger areas"
Reply #15 - Oct 4th, 2007,
The 1926 Holton price list in our Catalog states highly polished Brass and fails to list any lacquer options (not even for Sax's).
Books
Archives Topics
Misc. Clues Posts
Water Keys
>
Jan 18th, 2005,
It seems that there is a pattern with the way that water keys are sprung.
In the mid 1800's the saxhorns, at least those in common usage in the US did not have any water keys.
But, at some point they gained acceptance. Earlier horns seem to a lever water key
Later, the norm became using a spring
Can anybody provide dates as to when these styles came into fashion?
Reply #2 - Oct 31st, 2006,
In looking through all the photos I have of dated instruments as well as my own collection, I have found some information about the springs. The earliest cornet with a coil spring on the water key that I found was on a Besson from the early 1870's. The earliest single lever spring was on a Courtois from about 1855. The last single lever type was in a Lyon & Healy catalog from 1896.
I doubt if the single lever type lasted much after 1900. In my collection, about 85% of instruments with lever springs also have cork inserts on the valve caps; another characteristic that also died out about the same time.
Reply #3 - Oct 31st, 2006,
The catalog certainly helps with documentation. Do you suppose that the 1855 water key might have been a later add on?
Reply #4 - Nov 1st, 2006
This discussion helps me with an approximate date of manufacture of my LH Own Make cornet, which has the old-style water valve springs. I had often wondered at its age.
Reply #5 - Feb 10th, 2007
There is a Louis Schreiber 1865 patent that shows a SARV cornet with a single lever water key, so I would assume that they were common by then. The patent isn't for the water key, only for the placement of tuning slide and valves to facilitate water collection so they certainly were in use by then.
Reply #6 - Jan 6th, 2008,
In looking through the 1880 Lyon & Healy Catalog, it struck me that none of the instruments pictured had water keys. And, while I suppose it is plausible that the artist just didn't bother to draw them on the instruments, I would think that the water key would be enough of an innovation that they would have been displayed.
So, although already invented, I would propose that in 1880 L&H hadn't seen them as something their horns needed to be competitive.
(There is an 1894 L&H Catalog on eBay, and those instruments do have water keys, no surprise there.)
Reply #7 - Jan 6th, 2008,
may only be the method of image reproduction. On page 47, they list replacing or adding one as the first of their repairs to existing horns.
Reply #8 - Jan 6th, 2008,
So, do you suppose that it could have been only an aftermarket add-on at that time? or as you say, that the artist just didn't bother with them?
At first, I thought it was just that the catalog had a bunch of outdated stock that they were promoting on the first pages. (I do believe that was the case with the OTS horns. But the 1880s I believe that they were no longer in vogue, but the dealers still had them on the shelves.)
But on the later pictures of the cornets, I don't see any water keys either.
Reply #9 - Jan 6th, 2008,
Well, it seems to me that the assumption so far is that this price is for adding a whole new water key where there was never one before... But, from my point of view, this seems to be a repair list. So, isn't it possible that it is really representing the replacement of a key that has been knocked off? (I don't know about you guys, but I must do this all the time!)
Reply #10 - Jan 6th, 2008,
The pictures in the 1880 catalog are much smaller, and I assume were manually cut in some kind of process. They may have just thought that it was too much detail. In the 1894 catalog the illustrations are for individual horns and are much larger.
I certainly did at first think the prices were for ADDING, such as to over-the-shoulder horns. But if you look at the rest of the list, they are not ADDING top-action keys, only repairing a top-action or side-action horn. Certainly, dent removal is REPAIR, as is re-polishing, so I agree with Brandi, I think this would be for fixing water keys that were already there.
Reply #11 - Jan 7th, 2008,
I have 2 Besson Euphoniums from the early 1890's and they have coil springs (today’s normal type). The only difference from today’s springs is that these older ones are made with a thicker wire and the coiled parts are conical, getting larger loops toward the middle and smaller loops at the outside edges.
Reply #12 - Aug 30th, 2009,
On my DePrins Vienna Valve Trombone there is no lock and till now I held it by the valve cluster maybe that is not the way the makers intended it.
>
Jan 18th, 2005,
It seems that there is a pattern with the way that water keys are sprung.
In the mid 1800's the saxhorns, at least those in common usage in the US did not have any water keys.
But, at some point they gained acceptance. Earlier horns seem to a lever water key
Later, the norm became using a spring
Can anybody provide dates as to when these styles came into fashion?
Reply #2 - Oct 31st, 2006,
In looking through all the photos I have of dated instruments as well as my own collection, I have found some information about the springs. The earliest cornet with a coil spring on the water key that I found was on a Besson from the early 1870's. The earliest single lever spring was on a Courtois from about 1855. The last single lever type was in a Lyon & Healy catalog from 1896.
I doubt if the single lever type lasted much after 1900. In my collection, about 85% of instruments with lever springs also have cork inserts on the valve caps; another characteristic that also died out about the same time.
Reply #3 - Oct 31st, 2006,
The catalog certainly helps with documentation. Do you suppose that the 1855 water key might have been a later add on?
Reply #4 - Nov 1st, 2006
This discussion helps me with an approximate date of manufacture of my LH Own Make cornet, which has the old-style water valve springs. I had often wondered at its age.
Reply #5 - Feb 10th, 2007
There is a Louis Schreiber 1865 patent that shows a SARV cornet with a single lever water key, so I would assume that they were common by then. The patent isn't for the water key, only for the placement of tuning slide and valves to facilitate water collection so they certainly were in use by then.
Reply #6 - Jan 6th, 2008,
In looking through the 1880 Lyon & Healy Catalog, it struck me that none of the instruments pictured had water keys. And, while I suppose it is plausible that the artist just didn't bother to draw them on the instruments, I would think that the water key would be enough of an innovation that they would have been displayed.
So, although already invented, I would propose that in 1880 L&H hadn't seen them as something their horns needed to be competitive.
(There is an 1894 L&H Catalog on eBay, and those instruments do have water keys, no surprise there.)
Reply #7 - Jan 6th, 2008,
may only be the method of image reproduction. On page 47, they list replacing or adding one as the first of their repairs to existing horns.
Reply #8 - Jan 6th, 2008,
So, do you suppose that it could have been only an aftermarket add-on at that time? or as you say, that the artist just didn't bother with them?
At first, I thought it was just that the catalog had a bunch of outdated stock that they were promoting on the first pages. (I do believe that was the case with the OTS horns. But the 1880s I believe that they were no longer in vogue, but the dealers still had them on the shelves.)
But on the later pictures of the cornets, I don't see any water keys either.
Reply #9 - Jan 6th, 2008,
Well, it seems to me that the assumption so far is that this price is for adding a whole new water key where there was never one before... But, from my point of view, this seems to be a repair list. So, isn't it possible that it is really representing the replacement of a key that has been knocked off? (I don't know about you guys, but I must do this all the time!)
Reply #10 - Jan 6th, 2008,
The pictures in the 1880 catalog are much smaller, and I assume were manually cut in some kind of process. They may have just thought that it was too much detail. In the 1894 catalog the illustrations are for individual horns and are much larger.
I certainly did at first think the prices were for ADDING, such as to over-the-shoulder horns. But if you look at the rest of the list, they are not ADDING top-action keys, only repairing a top-action or side-action horn. Certainly, dent removal is REPAIR, as is re-polishing, so I agree with Brandi, I think this would be for fixing water keys that were already there.
Reply #11 - Jan 7th, 2008,
I have 2 Besson Euphoniums from the early 1890's and they have coil springs (today’s normal type). The only difference from today’s springs is that these older ones are made with a thicker wire and the coiled parts are conical, getting larger loops toward the middle and smaller loops at the outside edges.
Reply #12 - Aug 30th, 2009,
On my DePrins Vienna Valve Trombone there is no lock and till now I held it by the valve cluster maybe that is not the way the makers intended it.
Dating by Politics
Mar 8th, 2009,
One example: If it says Czechoslovakia it is made after 1919. If it says Bohemia it was made between 1890 and 1916.
There should be a bunch more and having them all in one place would be useful.
Reply #1 - Mar 8th, 2009,
"West Germany (Inf. German: Westdeutschland or West Deutschland) was the common English name for the Federal Republic of Germany (German: Bundesrepublik Deutschland), from its formation in May 1949 to German reunification in October 1990, when East Germany was dissolved and its states became part of the Federal Republic, ending the more than 40-year division of Germany. From the 1990 reunification onwards, the Federal Republic of Germany has been commonly known as Germany."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany
"Czechoslovakia" lasted from 1918-1992 [it then became the Czech Republic and Slovakia]. Wikipedia says that "Czecho-Slovakia" was only used 1918-1923 and 1938-1939.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovakia
Reply #3 - Sep 25th, 2013,
I found on the Markneukirchen Museum forum that during the separation of Germany the East German manufacturers went on with made in Germany till 1974 after that made in GDR till 1990.
Mar 8th, 2009,
One example: If it says Czechoslovakia it is made after 1919. If it says Bohemia it was made between 1890 and 1916.
There should be a bunch more and having them all in one place would be useful.
Reply #1 - Mar 8th, 2009,
"West Germany (Inf. German: Westdeutschland or West Deutschland) was the common English name for the Federal Republic of Germany (German: Bundesrepublik Deutschland), from its formation in May 1949 to German reunification in October 1990, when East Germany was dissolved and its states became part of the Federal Republic, ending the more than 40-year division of Germany. From the 1990 reunification onwards, the Federal Republic of Germany has been commonly known as Germany."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Germany
"Czechoslovakia" lasted from 1918-1992 [it then became the Czech Republic and Slovakia]. Wikipedia says that "Czecho-Slovakia" was only used 1918-1923 and 1938-1939.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovakia
Reply #3 - Sep 25th, 2013,
I found on the Markneukirchen Museum forum that during the separation of Germany the East German manufacturers went on with made in Germany till 1974 after that made in GDR till 1990.
Using Pistons as a clue as to the maker of an instrument
Aug 13th, 2016,
I was in a recent conversation about trying to determine the maker of a certain stencil. And it was suggested to me that one clue that I hadn't previously considered was the size of the piston. So, here is a start on a Pistron Table
https://horn-u-copia.net/Reference/casing%20table.html
Feb 21st, 2010,
I notice that there is no thread discussing dating an instrument by the engraving on it. I would think that this could be very key, especially for instruments made in the United States in the early to late 1900s. True, it isn't extremely accurate, but could serve to get you in the ballpark where other data might be able to narrow it down.
As a broad statement, I have noticed that as trombones become more "modern" in date, the engraving has diminished to the point where it is merely "labeling" as opposed to an artist's creation.
Reply #1 - Feb 21st, 2010,
I think it would be potentially useful to use engravings to date instruments, but it would need to occur brand by brand. I do believe that for certain instruments we have talked about using the engraving as an indicator (but don't ask me which ones now).
Reply #2 - Feb 21st, 2010,
We found that a certain engraving from Kessels is only used after 1930 so that's is not very accurate but it's better than no dating at all.
Reply #3 - Oct 22nd, 2010,
Would you be able to date an engraving on a horn not familiar, i have come across a horn made in Italy, and it has a unique engraving with unique rotors (full mechanical) and in the key of Eb... I’m just curious.
Reply #4 - Oct 24th, 2010,
Probably not. BUT if you want to share more information about the horn, maybe it will resonate with someone.
Reply #5 - Dec 12th, 2010,
Yes, the evidence would have to be brand specific. In the most obvious cases, the engraving could be used to establish cutoff dates, i.e.. before or after, like the Conn Marching men or the old Holton floral pattern but all in all when that much is known about an instrument, you don't need to look much further. Using the engraving of a single unknown instrument to establish a date is pretty "iffy". Other than the fact that engraving in general has become less ornate over the years. Still, there are the Berkely Mariachi's.
A specific era could be suggested by the style but that's not the same as establishing a date for the instrument.
Reply #6 - Jan 3rd, 2011
This topic is very interesting to me since I have an old Wurlitzer, brass, shepherd's crook cornet that is heavily engraved. I cannot find a serial number anywhere.
The valve caps are numbered and correspond to matching numbers on the valve bodies, indicating that the threads are cut by hand and not mass produced. I believe the lack of serial number and numbered threads date the manufacture to sometime before 1910 (when Ford popularized mass-production) but possibly much earlier, say late 1800's.
Does anyone know how I can determine the age of this rare instrument?
Reply #7 - Jan 3rd, 2011
Makers over time have used a variety of means of marking valves. They did so, primarily to keep parts together as they traveled through the manufacturing process.
The most common way was simply 1, 2, 3.
But, when there were departments devoted to just making the valve assemblies, they would make them in long strings and so you would see numbers such as 16, 17, 18.
Some makers would mark the serial number on all the parts, including the caps.
Some used these practices until quite late. And, they varied by makers. Nevertheless, it does seem like there might be a potential to determine age based on when such practices were discontinued for another method.
Also, you bring up interesting thoughts about the manufacturing process used, and when they were changed. I always assumed that makers would use tap and dies to make the valve threading, but maybe that wasn't always the case.
But the rub for your instrument was that Wurlitzer was basically a dealer rather than a maker. He would get the instrument sold under the Wurlitzer name from other makers. So, the inferences on age of the instrument by manufacturer would have to be based on who actually made the instrument and that isn't known - at least I don't know who Wurlitzer used as a maker before Conn supplied his instruments.
Reply #9 - Aug 24th, 2016,
For most makers you will probably need to find someone who has studied them for years to date them by the engraving. I have collected instruments from the relatively obscure maker Leland & Son for about 15 years and can now easily date them by the engraving style.
One aspect of engraving that might help is in the design. Styles like Art Deco have an influence in the design even in things like bell engravings and can give you a clue to the age.
The best way to date an instrument is simply by looking at the construction. Just as auto lovers can date a car immediately, if you have immersed yourself in musical instruments for 20 years you should be able to guess at least the nearest decade.
Reply #10 - Jul 1st, 2018,
With small makers that didn't have in-house engravers, this might be useful, but only if we have original sales receipts. I have a fun-to-play Geyer single that uses an "early" form of his engraving. Barely visible, it's the only way I could afford a Geyer was getting a beat-up one, but I know it is early, because we know later ones were just stamped, I know it is early, just not how early.
Aug 13th, 2016,
I was in a recent conversation about trying to determine the maker of a certain stencil. And it was suggested to me that one clue that I hadn't previously considered was the size of the piston. So, here is a start on a Pistron Table
https://horn-u-copia.net/Reference/casing%20table.html
Feb 21st, 2010,
I notice that there is no thread discussing dating an instrument by the engraving on it. I would think that this could be very key, especially for instruments made in the United States in the early to late 1900s. True, it isn't extremely accurate, but could serve to get you in the ballpark where other data might be able to narrow it down.
As a broad statement, I have noticed that as trombones become more "modern" in date, the engraving has diminished to the point where it is merely "labeling" as opposed to an artist's creation.
Reply #1 - Feb 21st, 2010,
I think it would be potentially useful to use engravings to date instruments, but it would need to occur brand by brand. I do believe that for certain instruments we have talked about using the engraving as an indicator (but don't ask me which ones now).
Reply #2 - Feb 21st, 2010,
We found that a certain engraving from Kessels is only used after 1930 so that's is not very accurate but it's better than no dating at all.
Reply #3 - Oct 22nd, 2010,
Would you be able to date an engraving on a horn not familiar, i have come across a horn made in Italy, and it has a unique engraving with unique rotors (full mechanical) and in the key of Eb... I’m just curious.
Reply #4 - Oct 24th, 2010,
Probably not. BUT if you want to share more information about the horn, maybe it will resonate with someone.
Reply #5 - Dec 12th, 2010,
Yes, the evidence would have to be brand specific. In the most obvious cases, the engraving could be used to establish cutoff dates, i.e.. before or after, like the Conn Marching men or the old Holton floral pattern but all in all when that much is known about an instrument, you don't need to look much further. Using the engraving of a single unknown instrument to establish a date is pretty "iffy". Other than the fact that engraving in general has become less ornate over the years. Still, there are the Berkely Mariachi's.
A specific era could be suggested by the style but that's not the same as establishing a date for the instrument.
Reply #6 - Jan 3rd, 2011
This topic is very interesting to me since I have an old Wurlitzer, brass, shepherd's crook cornet that is heavily engraved. I cannot find a serial number anywhere.
The valve caps are numbered and correspond to matching numbers on the valve bodies, indicating that the threads are cut by hand and not mass produced. I believe the lack of serial number and numbered threads date the manufacture to sometime before 1910 (when Ford popularized mass-production) but possibly much earlier, say late 1800's.
Does anyone know how I can determine the age of this rare instrument?
Reply #7 - Jan 3rd, 2011
Makers over time have used a variety of means of marking valves. They did so, primarily to keep parts together as they traveled through the manufacturing process.
The most common way was simply 1, 2, 3.
But, when there were departments devoted to just making the valve assemblies, they would make them in long strings and so you would see numbers such as 16, 17, 18.
Some makers would mark the serial number on all the parts, including the caps.
Some used these practices until quite late. And, they varied by makers. Nevertheless, it does seem like there might be a potential to determine age based on when such practices were discontinued for another method.
Also, you bring up interesting thoughts about the manufacturing process used, and when they were changed. I always assumed that makers would use tap and dies to make the valve threading, but maybe that wasn't always the case.
But the rub for your instrument was that Wurlitzer was basically a dealer rather than a maker. He would get the instrument sold under the Wurlitzer name from other makers. So, the inferences on age of the instrument by manufacturer would have to be based on who actually made the instrument and that isn't known - at least I don't know who Wurlitzer used as a maker before Conn supplied his instruments.
Reply #9 - Aug 24th, 2016,
For most makers you will probably need to find someone who has studied them for years to date them by the engraving. I have collected instruments from the relatively obscure maker Leland & Son for about 15 years and can now easily date them by the engraving style.
One aspect of engraving that might help is in the design. Styles like Art Deco have an influence in the design even in things like bell engravings and can give you a clue to the age.
The best way to date an instrument is simply by looking at the construction. Just as auto lovers can date a car immediately, if you have immersed yourself in musical instruments for 20 years you should be able to guess at least the nearest decade.
Reply #10 - Jul 1st, 2018,
With small makers that didn't have in-house engravers, this might be useful, but only if we have original sales receipts. I have a fun-to-play Geyer single that uses an "early" form of his engraving. Barely visible, it's the only way I could afford a Geyer was getting a beat-up one, but I know it is early, because we know later ones were just stamped, I know it is early, just not how early.
Valve Cap styles
Oct 31st, 2006,
One indication of the age of an instrument can be found in the valve cap style. Up until about 1900, most of the piston valved instruments used a cork inset in the top of the valve cap to cushion the sound of the valve coming down as well as to adjust the valve to the correct alignment. The last year that I have found for this is 1896. It would be nice if anyone else could date one to a later time.
The newer style valve cap is all brass with a felt placed under the finger pad. The oldest instrument that I have with this style is a Conn from 1889. Has anyone seen this on an older instrument?
The finger pads also changed at about 1900 from plain brass (or plated) to having a pearl insert. The oldest one I have is a Conn from 1901.
Reply #1 - Oct 31st, 2006,
Don't know why I didn't think about the valve caps as an indication of a specific period. You did send me scurrying around looking through my stuff and I must confirm that I can't find anything that deviates from your formulas.
Finger pads are going to be tough to rely upon however, as they can very easily be changed.
But thank you for your perceptions, I will be looking at those details more closely.
I'm thinking it might be a good idea to do a picture display of the various styles.
Reply #2 - Oct 31st, 2006,
I have a Besson cornet that is dated at c.1904
Reply #3 - Jul 1st, 2007,
This one caught my attention; it is a Conn from 1895. It has the new style caps on it.
Reply #4 - Nov 29th, 2007,
Here is an example of the older style valve caps, with the cork removed from one of the caps to show its design.
"
Reply #6 - Dec 9th, 2008
I have an old trumpet, made by Van Engelen - Lier, Belgium that has similar cork insets in the valve caps. I have no idea about the age, however. The trumpet is marked with an insigne referring to 'Gold Medal at the Antwerp World Exhibition of 1885'. I'm curious to find out the real age.
Reply #7 - Mar 24th, 2009,
It appears that Conn always used 'modern' valve caps. I have found no examples of Conn cork topped caps.
Reply #8 - Aug 27th, 2009
Thank you for that is a huge help. My Baritone has both brass plated keypads and cork inset. Another baritone by the same manufacturer seems to have modern valve cap style and felt keypads.
Reply #9 - Aug 27th, 2009,
It is fortunate for us who are trying to figure out the age of these horns, that makers tended to learn from one another, and adopted improvements at about the same time.
Robb Stewart
Reply #10 - Nov 10th, 2009,
Besson, Paris, continued with the cork washer of "bumper" in the top cap until production was disrupted by the Nazis. As stated by Kenton, Conn never used these cork inserts from the start in 1875. I have an Adolphe Sax from about 1863 without these corks and I suspect that there are earlier examples. Conn started making mother of pearl topped buttons in most if not all instruments by the early 1890s. I'm quite sure that there were deluxe or presentation instruments with pearl button inserts before that, although I'm not thinking of an example now.
It is a very close copy of the French Besson - with exception for the bore size - and I guess that's why it still has the cork style. After playing it I wish that all bumpers were fresh cork. What a great soft but still firm feeling!
Reply #12 - Nov 12th, 2009,
That's interesting, I don't think I have seen any Keefer's with cork caps.
Reply #13 - Nov 13th, 2009,
Here's a similar one, but with "modern" caps...
http://www.trompetenforum.de/TF/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=12141
The valve block is different too, and the braces. I have kept my eye on a few Keefer trumpets on ebay and I don't think two made after, say 1935, have been perfectly identical yet. Something is always custom fit.
Reply #15 - Sep 5th, 2016
Thanks for the picture you included of how the cork is intended to be used in the older style valve caps. In my Van Engelen Tenor Horn ("Bugle Baryton" in their catalog) made just before the turn of the century, I think, I was uncertain of the function of the remnants of cork that I saw there. None of it still extends above the cap. Now it is clear that it is used to properly align the valve position when the valve is depressed, and to quiet the valve noise.
(I've looked at the valves when depressed with a borescope and they all go down too far.)
Do you guys know if replacing this cork is typically within the skill set of band instrument repair technicians today? Is a standard thickness of sheet cork available and suitable for this if I wanted to attempt the replacement myself?
I'd be grateful for any information or guidance.
Reply #16 - Sep 5th, 2016,
Truthfully, I've only ever made them myself. I don't know if the standard repair shop would want to take them on or not.
What I do is to start with round cork stock, a piccolo head cork works. I have a brass tube with a sharpened end on one end that I have soldered the other end to a rod and I spin that with a drill to cut the center hole.
I spin the cork to sand it to the diameter that I need. I've used the lathe to spin it, and I have put a screw through the center hole and used a nut to make it tight and spun it that way.
Reply #17 - Sep 11th, 2016
Thanks! I'm going to give it a try sometime then. I don't have a thing in the world to lose...
Update. I took some measurements and decided I could try working with some #2 tapered round cork stoppers. (I found a supplier online with 15 of them for about $4.50 shipped.) So now I've lost $4.50 if it doesn't work out.
It will be great to get this part of the horn repaired.
On my horn the seat for the corks in the valve caps is 10.6mm. The valve stem diameter is 5.9 mm, and the hole in the cap is about 8.1mm.
As an aside, on the topic of dating and identifying brass instruments based on various physical traits is intriguing. Wouldn't it be great if we could develop a crowd sourced database of physical attributes of instruments that people own?
I'm not volunteering, at least not yet. But it could be a great resource for brass organologists if significant quantities and reasonable qualities of data could be collected.
Relationships between builders, parts suppliers, craftsmen, etc. could pop out of the data like magic... Trends over time in the bores, bells, etc.
Comparing an unknown instrument against a good database could reveal a lot about it, I think.
Reply #18 - Sep 27th, 2016,
Hi. I just wanted to share my completed valve cap cork replacement on my Van Engelen baritone/tenor horn.
I believe this horn to be ca 1900. It had little cork remaining. Using the photos provided here, and Kenton's helpful post above, I resolved to fix this part of my horn myself. I milled/drilled appropriate sized holes through some #2 stopper corks, cut bottoms off to fit valve caps, and then cut tops off to allow correct valve port alignment when valves were depressed. I used one of the little $5 USB borescope cameras available from China on ebay to view valve port alignment. I glued the cork in place with rubber cement. I'm very happy with the result. It is more functional than beautiful.
Here are some pictures if interested.
Van Engelen Baritone Valve Corks
https://imgur.com/gallery/Jxjz1
Reply #19 - Oct 13th, 2016,
I use a tapered round file to clean up the interior holes. In an emergency you can use a clear plastic hose from the hardware store. Just take the cap with you when you go.
Reply #20 - Oct 18th, 2016
F.Sudre was using soft bumpers into the early 1900s.
The trumpet came with a set of red plastic bumpers. Very nicely manufactured and could have been original. They had that turn of the century look to them and fit correctly. If they were replacements the originals would likely have been the typical cork.
Old wine corks. I spin mine too and shape them with small diamond files. I find it best to fit the holes for the piston plungers after the cork is set in the cap. It minimizes damage to the fragile part. The small round file is the way to go with that step. A drill could work, with extreme caution, but the file is easy to control. The great thing about making new ones is that they can serve to align the pistons with the valve block. As they wear, the pistons go out of alignment.
Reply #21 - Nov 28th, 2020
For what it's worth, I have a Couesnon cornet from 1926 that still has the cork bumpers.
Oct 31st, 2006,
One indication of the age of an instrument can be found in the valve cap style. Up until about 1900, most of the piston valved instruments used a cork inset in the top of the valve cap to cushion the sound of the valve coming down as well as to adjust the valve to the correct alignment. The last year that I have found for this is 1896. It would be nice if anyone else could date one to a later time.
The newer style valve cap is all brass with a felt placed under the finger pad. The oldest instrument that I have with this style is a Conn from 1889. Has anyone seen this on an older instrument?
The finger pads also changed at about 1900 from plain brass (or plated) to having a pearl insert. The oldest one I have is a Conn from 1901.
Reply #1 - Oct 31st, 2006,
Don't know why I didn't think about the valve caps as an indication of a specific period. You did send me scurrying around looking through my stuff and I must confirm that I can't find anything that deviates from your formulas.
Finger pads are going to be tough to rely upon however, as they can very easily be changed.
But thank you for your perceptions, I will be looking at those details more closely.
I'm thinking it might be a good idea to do a picture display of the various styles.
Reply #2 - Oct 31st, 2006,
I have a Besson cornet that is dated at c.1904
Reply #3 - Jul 1st, 2007,
This one caught my attention; it is a Conn from 1895. It has the new style caps on it.
Reply #4 - Nov 29th, 2007,
Here is an example of the older style valve caps, with the cork removed from one of the caps to show its design.
"
Reply #6 - Dec 9th, 2008
I have an old trumpet, made by Van Engelen - Lier, Belgium that has similar cork insets in the valve caps. I have no idea about the age, however. The trumpet is marked with an insigne referring to 'Gold Medal at the Antwerp World Exhibition of 1885'. I'm curious to find out the real age.
Reply #7 - Mar 24th, 2009,
It appears that Conn always used 'modern' valve caps. I have found no examples of Conn cork topped caps.
Reply #8 - Aug 27th, 2009
Thank you for that is a huge help. My Baritone has both brass plated keypads and cork inset. Another baritone by the same manufacturer seems to have modern valve cap style and felt keypads.
Reply #9 - Aug 27th, 2009,
It is fortunate for us who are trying to figure out the age of these horns, that makers tended to learn from one another, and adopted improvements at about the same time.
Robb Stewart
Reply #10 - Nov 10th, 2009,
Besson, Paris, continued with the cork washer of "bumper" in the top cap until production was disrupted by the Nazis. As stated by Kenton, Conn never used these cork inserts from the start in 1875. I have an Adolphe Sax from about 1863 without these corks and I suspect that there are earlier examples. Conn started making mother of pearl topped buttons in most if not all instruments by the early 1890s. I'm quite sure that there were deluxe or presentation instruments with pearl button inserts before that, although I'm not thinking of an example now.
It is a very close copy of the French Besson - with exception for the bore size - and I guess that's why it still has the cork style. After playing it I wish that all bumpers were fresh cork. What a great soft but still firm feeling!
Reply #12 - Nov 12th, 2009,
That's interesting, I don't think I have seen any Keefer's with cork caps.
Reply #13 - Nov 13th, 2009,
Here's a similar one, but with "modern" caps...
http://www.trompetenforum.de/TF/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=12141
The valve block is different too, and the braces. I have kept my eye on a few Keefer trumpets on ebay and I don't think two made after, say 1935, have been perfectly identical yet. Something is always custom fit.
Reply #15 - Sep 5th, 2016
Thanks for the picture you included of how the cork is intended to be used in the older style valve caps. In my Van Engelen Tenor Horn ("Bugle Baryton" in their catalog) made just before the turn of the century, I think, I was uncertain of the function of the remnants of cork that I saw there. None of it still extends above the cap. Now it is clear that it is used to properly align the valve position when the valve is depressed, and to quiet the valve noise.
(I've looked at the valves when depressed with a borescope and they all go down too far.)
Do you guys know if replacing this cork is typically within the skill set of band instrument repair technicians today? Is a standard thickness of sheet cork available and suitable for this if I wanted to attempt the replacement myself?
I'd be grateful for any information or guidance.
Reply #16 - Sep 5th, 2016,
Truthfully, I've only ever made them myself. I don't know if the standard repair shop would want to take them on or not.
What I do is to start with round cork stock, a piccolo head cork works. I have a brass tube with a sharpened end on one end that I have soldered the other end to a rod and I spin that with a drill to cut the center hole.
I spin the cork to sand it to the diameter that I need. I've used the lathe to spin it, and I have put a screw through the center hole and used a nut to make it tight and spun it that way.
Reply #17 - Sep 11th, 2016
Thanks! I'm going to give it a try sometime then. I don't have a thing in the world to lose...
Update. I took some measurements and decided I could try working with some #2 tapered round cork stoppers. (I found a supplier online with 15 of them for about $4.50 shipped.) So now I've lost $4.50 if it doesn't work out.
It will be great to get this part of the horn repaired.
On my horn the seat for the corks in the valve caps is 10.6mm. The valve stem diameter is 5.9 mm, and the hole in the cap is about 8.1mm.
As an aside, on the topic of dating and identifying brass instruments based on various physical traits is intriguing. Wouldn't it be great if we could develop a crowd sourced database of physical attributes of instruments that people own?
I'm not volunteering, at least not yet. But it could be a great resource for brass organologists if significant quantities and reasonable qualities of data could be collected.
Relationships between builders, parts suppliers, craftsmen, etc. could pop out of the data like magic... Trends over time in the bores, bells, etc.
Comparing an unknown instrument against a good database could reveal a lot about it, I think.
Reply #18 - Sep 27th, 2016,
Hi. I just wanted to share my completed valve cap cork replacement on my Van Engelen baritone/tenor horn.
I believe this horn to be ca 1900. It had little cork remaining. Using the photos provided here, and Kenton's helpful post above, I resolved to fix this part of my horn myself. I milled/drilled appropriate sized holes through some #2 stopper corks, cut bottoms off to fit valve caps, and then cut tops off to allow correct valve port alignment when valves were depressed. I used one of the little $5 USB borescope cameras available from China on ebay to view valve port alignment. I glued the cork in place with rubber cement. I'm very happy with the result. It is more functional than beautiful.
Here are some pictures if interested.
Van Engelen Baritone Valve Corks
https://imgur.com/gallery/Jxjz1
Reply #19 - Oct 13th, 2016,
I use a tapered round file to clean up the interior holes. In an emergency you can use a clear plastic hose from the hardware store. Just take the cap with you when you go.
Reply #20 - Oct 18th, 2016
F.Sudre was using soft bumpers into the early 1900s.
The trumpet came with a set of red plastic bumpers. Very nicely manufactured and could have been original. They had that turn of the century look to them and fit correctly. If they were replacements the originals would likely have been the typical cork.
Old wine corks. I spin mine too and shape them with small diamond files. I find it best to fit the holes for the piston plungers after the cork is set in the cap. It minimizes damage to the fragile part. The small round file is the way to go with that step. A drill could work, with extreme caution, but the file is easy to control. The great thing about making new ones is that they can serve to align the pistons with the valve block. As they wear, the pistons go out of alignment.
Reply #21 - Nov 28th, 2020
For what it's worth, I have a Couesnon cornet from 1926 that still has the cork bumpers.