Trombone History
Pre 1900 trombone reference - valve or slide?
Feb 14th, 2008,
Can anybody elaborate on the transition from the valved to slide trombone prior to about 1900? When did this take place by and large?
Specifically, regarding a ca1882/1883 reference to an ensemble with a trombone in it, would that likely be a valved trombone or possibly an early reference to a slide trombone?
Reply #1 - Feb 14th, 2008,
The slide trombone is the oldest of the brasswind instruments. It was a venerable instrument before valves were invented in the early 1800's. However, like every fad, the slide became relatively unpopular for several decades, and slowly crept back into popularity from about the 1880's to the turn of the century.
The slide never completely dropped out and retained its orchestral position. And, periodically you saw bands with slide trombones throughout the ages - just not as many, since they were competing with the valved trombones, and Bb tenor horns.
Reply #2 - Feb 19th, 2008,
I'm sorry, as usual I gave only half the information pertaining to the scenario.
The reference is to an amateur American ensemble from the early 1880s. So, what would it most likely be slide or valved trombone?
My hunch would be toward valve trombone.
Reply #3 - Feb 19th, 2008,
My hunch would be toward valve trombone.
Reply #4 - Jun 15th, 2008,
My current thinking is that the valve trombone came into being for use in confined spaces such as pit orchestras. The valve trombone might also have been useful in early recordings where the musicians were confined to a very tight space, as the microphone had not yet been invented. The valve trombone disappeared from catalogs around the time the microphone was invented. Though, this might be a coincidence.
SARV and TARV valve trombones are known to have been made in the U.S. What valve system was used in France is outside my area of knowledge. I think I remember seeing a trombone with a Vienna valve system too. Were such instruments made in Germany and England? I would not be surprised.
Reply #5 - Jun 15th, 2008,
Check out: Valve Trombones with Vienna Valves
In addition to SARV and TARV valve systems, there were also Berliner valve trombones.
the trombone "the voice of God"
Reply #1 - Aug 24th, 2009,
This is certainly not a new concept. Beethoven, if indeed he is the source of the quote, was merely echoing Luther's translation of the Bible. The trumpet or horn most often referred to in Luther’s translation , the very instrument through which we hear God himself speaking to his people, was a Posaune, a trombone. - At the receiving of the commandments at mount Sinai (Exodus 19: 16-19) there was a thunder and lightning, and a thick cloud was over the mountain and there was the sound of a very strong Posaune . . . and Moses led the people out of the camp to God. . . and the Posaunen became louder and louder. [ . . . da erhob sich ein Ton einer sehr starken Posaune . . . und Mose fhrte das Volk aus dem Lager Gott entgegen . . . und der Posaun Ton ward immer Strker.] Luthers use of this term is, of course, not literal, referring to a trombone, but figurative, representing the ancient trumpet (buisine) of God and the angels. Grimms Deutsches Wrterbuch (Leipzig, 1889) traces the etymology of Posaune to the older form busaune and to the middle and middle-high German forms basne, bosne, busne, pusne, and busne, which were drawn from the earlier greco-latin buccina.
the trombone "the voice of God"
Aug 23rd, 2009,
While doing some research I came across the following undocumented quote attributed to Beethoven, " . . . the trombone was like the voice of God Himself." I've searched and searched including using F. Noonan's English translation of Wegler and Ries's work Remembering Beethoven. I came across an obscure film entitled "The Trombone The Voice of God," which is apparently out of commerce (? featuring Alain Trudel & Richard Raum).
Any help with the quote or the film?
Reply #2 - Aug 24th, 2009,
And, of course, the trombone was a late comer to the orchestra, in spite of its antiquity, because it was considered a sacred rather than a secular instrument.
Reply #3 - Aug 24th, 2009,
True, kinda sorta... Depends on how you define "orchestra" and trace its history. Certainly, trombones have played a part of instrumental music (sonata and opera orchestras) all along. I would sooner believe that the trombones' relative late appearance (if in the grand scheme of things, you can call ca50 years late) in the orchestra was because it wasn't a part of the Harmonie wind band (or go back a bit further to the French court wind band), which became a staple part of the orchestra relatively early on. It's a complicated issue with many gray areas and disparate threads tying together.
Reply #4 - Aug 26th, 2009,
Thanks for the specific etymology links and the reference! I also appreciate the perspective relative to the trombone's absence from traditional harmoniemusick.
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Trombone History Posts
Re: Trombone History
bones in the pre-19th Cent. Music
Feb 12th, 2005,
In the latest HBS Journal (Vol 16)- includes a detailed and most scholarly paper by Peter Downey on the possible use of the soprano trombone in 17th Century music. He concludes that the highest part of the "Secundus Chorus" in "Incipite Domino" is intended for performance by soprano voice doubled on soprano trombone and that the other voices are also doubled on alt, tenor, and bass trombones. In this case, Downey states that the earliest known composition calling for a soprano trombone occurred in 1648 by the Austrian Lutheran composer Andreas Rauch.
I'm sure we have all heard recordings of the Canadian Brass and others playing music by Gabrielli and other early compositions. I have always wondered what sort of instrument could have been employed (in pre-19th century music) to play the upper parts which are now beautifully executed by (and are especially suited to) a modern valved trumpet. I would think that a cornett or Cornetto could not provide a balanced sound when used in conjunction with slide trombones.
Certainly, natural trumpets and natural horns were available to composers of early music, but these instruments were limited to their basic notes and overtones (and the skill of the musician by lipping notes and/or by quickly changing crooks). Sackbut slide trombones were obviously used to play the tenor voice in such early music, and it therefore made sense to me that as the sackbut slide trombone technology was already available, a smaller trombone (or slide trumpet) must have been available for the higher end in Renaissance music. I have a couple of 20th century slide cornets in my collection, but I have personally never seen an example of a pre-19th century soprano trombone or slide trumpet in musical instrument museums and private collections.
I understand that certain early "slide trumpets" were natural trumpets with a sliding tuning crook for fast key changes and were thus not configured to be used like a true soprano slide trombone... But again, I have not yet seen an example of either...
Anyone out there have a photo or info on early examples of Soprano Trombones??
After my writing the above, I have been corrected in no uncertain terms by two of the ultimate gurus on brass instrument taxonomy: Dr. Arnold Myers, Director, Edinburgh University Collection of Historic Musical Instruments and Jeffrey J Nussbaum, President, Historic Brass Society. Their replies follow:
Venetian music by the Gabrielis (uncle and nephew), Monteverdi and their contemporaries can be effective on modern brass instruments but are more satisfying when played on the original instruments with cornetti as the soprano-register "brass" instruments alongside the trombones you mentioned. Having played this repertoire now with good cornett players, I wouldn't want to be bothered any more with valve trumpets.
AND:
I reread your email and wanted to make a couple of points. First, the cornetto was the main instrument to accompany trombones and that pairing is used over a long period of time in many different repertoires.
The issue of the Renaissance slide trumpet is touchy and much has been written about it particularly in the HBS Journal. The main difference, of course, is the slide trumpet was a single slide instrument where the player held the mouthpiece still and moved the entire instrument back and forth. No instrument survives except for a theory by McGowen that he wrote in the HBSJ explains this. He contends that early 15th and 16th century trombones can converted from a double slide instrument into a single slide one. There are also surviving Medieval trumpets that a case can be made that they were single slide trumpets.
bones in the pre-19th Cent. Music
Feb 12th, 2005,
In the latest HBS Journal (Vol 16)- includes a detailed and most scholarly paper by Peter Downey on the possible use of the soprano trombone in 17th Century music. He concludes that the highest part of the "Secundus Chorus" in "Incipite Domino" is intended for performance by soprano voice doubled on soprano trombone and that the other voices are also doubled on alt, tenor, and bass trombones. In this case, Downey states that the earliest known composition calling for a soprano trombone occurred in 1648 by the Austrian Lutheran composer Andreas Rauch.
I'm sure we have all heard recordings of the Canadian Brass and others playing music by Gabrielli and other early compositions. I have always wondered what sort of instrument could have been employed (in pre-19th century music) to play the upper parts which are now beautifully executed by (and are especially suited to) a modern valved trumpet. I would think that a cornett or Cornetto could not provide a balanced sound when used in conjunction with slide trombones.
Certainly, natural trumpets and natural horns were available to composers of early music, but these instruments were limited to their basic notes and overtones (and the skill of the musician by lipping notes and/or by quickly changing crooks). Sackbut slide trombones were obviously used to play the tenor voice in such early music, and it therefore made sense to me that as the sackbut slide trombone technology was already available, a smaller trombone (or slide trumpet) must have been available for the higher end in Renaissance music. I have a couple of 20th century slide cornets in my collection, but I have personally never seen an example of a pre-19th century soprano trombone or slide trumpet in musical instrument museums and private collections.
I understand that certain early "slide trumpets" were natural trumpets with a sliding tuning crook for fast key changes and were thus not configured to be used like a true soprano slide trombone... But again, I have not yet seen an example of either...
Anyone out there have a photo or info on early examples of Soprano Trombones??
After my writing the above, I have been corrected in no uncertain terms by two of the ultimate gurus on brass instrument taxonomy: Dr. Arnold Myers, Director, Edinburgh University Collection of Historic Musical Instruments and Jeffrey J Nussbaum, President, Historic Brass Society. Their replies follow:
Venetian music by the Gabrielis (uncle and nephew), Monteverdi and their contemporaries can be effective on modern brass instruments but are more satisfying when played on the original instruments with cornetti as the soprano-register "brass" instruments alongside the trombones you mentioned. Having played this repertoire now with good cornett players, I wouldn't want to be bothered any more with valve trumpets.
AND:
I reread your email and wanted to make a couple of points. First, the cornetto was the main instrument to accompany trombones and that pairing is used over a long period of time in many different repertoires.
The issue of the Renaissance slide trumpet is touchy and much has been written about it particularly in the HBS Journal. The main difference, of course, is the slide trumpet was a single slide instrument where the player held the mouthpiece still and moved the entire instrument back and forth. No instrument survives except for a theory by McGowen that he wrote in the HBSJ explains this. He contends that early 15th and 16th century trombones can converted from a double slide instrument into a single slide one. There are also surviving Medieval trumpets that a case can be made that they were single slide trumpets.
Re: Trombone History
SOPRANO TROMBONES
I own one soprano trombone from Jupiter in my collection.
I always endeavor to call it "slide trumpet".
Hi, Frostbrass. Jupiter is a soprano trombone, not a slide trumpet. A slide trumpet is a Baroque instrument with a little slide that shifts the pitch by a semitone, the idea being that by working the slide back and forth, you can use the partials to play a chromatic scale.
Speaking of taxonomy... how can one have a slide cornet (with so much cylindrical tubing) and not a slide trumpet?
There's no such thing as a slide cornet.
Every kind of brasswind that can change the length of tube must have a cylindrical part of tube. If you press all 3 valves on a cornet you add a length of cylindrical tube to the instrument’s total tubing. It is not much different with a slide instrument; on a slide cornet the inner tubes of the slides could be made conical to reduce the amount of cylindrical tubing. That would be a difficult process, so there is reason enough why no one has made a slide cornet so far.
Agreed. Yet Conn marketed those instruments as slide cornets ('A' in their scheme of lettering) rather than trumpets ('B' instruments). I was merely emphasized that there is a large difference even in the U.S. between what something is called and what it IS. In this case, the proportions are more trumpet-like, yet the instrument used a CORNET mouthpiece, with a smaller shank than a trumpet.
Even if someone managed to make an inner slide conical, there would be too much cylindrical tubing in the 7th position.
Getting back to the "slide trumpet", "slide cornet" thing . . .
Where the soprano trombone is concerned, these terms were originally used to distinguish between horns that used a trumpet as opposed to horns that used a cornet mouthpiece.
Both terms emerged with that usage in mind in the 1910's and 1920's, when the soprano trombone was a popular vaudeville and New Orlean's jazz instrument. It was laymen who used the term "slide trumpet", so as a marketing strategy, Conn came out with their "slide cornet", to cash in on cornet players looking for a soprano trombone.
In some discussions of a taxonomic nature, there would be no use of lay terminology, but I'm afraid a discussion of that nature is beyond most of our members. Unless you've studied taxonomy formally and have the type of technical background in musical instrument construction, acoustics and metallurgy that goes with it, there's little chance you'll be able to participate in and follow discussions in that field. I'm afraid that sort of thing is more the purview of a well-equipped university or technical school. Most of us basement tinkerers are operating on a "stone knives and bearskins" basis and budget, and don't have the expensive sophisticated equipment to get us into the big leagues. Even a basic piece of hardware such as a measly tabletop CNC starts in the $10,000 range. That amount would only represent a tiny down-payment on the sophisticated equipment used to analyze the properties and playing characteristics of brasswinds.
Anyway, what was happening in the 1910's and 1920's was trumpet players were buying soprano trombones as a second instrument, and amongst themselves were calling these horns "slide trumpets". In this, Conn saw the potential in the cornet market, and so came out with a soprano trombone that accepted a cornet mouthpiece. The strategy must have worked, because many of these instruments got made and have survived.
That said, the gap between what instruments is called and what they are is pretty pervasive. Many tubas aren't tubas. The modern trumpet is a type of cornet. The valved "French" horn is a German instrument. The modern valved corno da caccia is really a type of furst pleiss (post) horn. The modern fluglehorn is not a fluglehorn- its correct name is Infanterie-Modele Saxhorn. Fluglehorns have been extinct for somewhere between 80-100 years.
Conn describes it as a 16A Slide Cornet...
Trombones come in all kinds of bores, and bore profiles, stepped slides etc. from the turn of the century pea shooters to big double trigger bass trombones (until you start pulling triggers, you just have a big bore tenor).
I THINK the only difference where on the slide the tuner distribution of weight would be.
VIENNA VALVE TROMBONES
Vienna valve clusters in Belgian/French trombones
All Vienna valve clusters in trombones that I have seen are identical. That brings me to the conclusion that they were all made by the same manufacturer. The manufacturer that made the most of these trombones and kept on making them until 1923 is Van Cauwelaert. The way these valves are actuated is different than for example the ones on Vienna French-horns and the system even has a name. It is called Systeme Belgique. The only brand, I found till now, that is not Belgian that used it is F. Besson. They had a promotional poster in 1919 with a 4-valve version of these valves on a trombone. Since Van Cauwelaert used them the most and the longest it is thought that he was the maker of these valve clusters. Although this is not a proven fact. We have one other example of these valves in the catalog on a Melchior de Vries trumpet.
My understanding is that they were able to produce a very legato style of articulation. I've not played one, however, so it would be interesting to hear from someone with experience with them.
I'm not sure what you mean by legato articulation, but it does have some other characteristics than my other valve trombones. With all valves up the lead pipe goes straight no bend at all so just like a slide trombone. I think that's why it produces a more trombone sound than the others. If I slide (legato) from let's say C down it doesn't sound more legato than the others. You can still hear the steps like all valve instruments.
I thought it was supposed to change pitch with less disturbance (pop) than the piston valve.
Well not to my ears but maybe I must ask somebody to listen and give an opinion. As a player I don't hear or feel the difference. There is a different feel in pushing the valves though. I think when you push down you create an under-pressure in the valve slide.
CALVARY TROMBONES
It's not a "trombone-like" instrument. It's a 6-valve tenor trombone.
They were very common once upon a time. Don't be deceived by the valve lengths. They correspond to the slide positions is all. You don't play these horns like a three-valve. Open is position 1, valve 1 is position 2, and so on.
These were referred to as cavalry instruments, and these trombones were configured this way for dang good reason. They're to save the player from getting his teeth knocked out, should the horse decide to rear.
Lots of instruments used to be made with this 6-valve configuration. The thing about this configuration is that it plays perfectly in tune without requiring compensating valves, which is why 6-valve tubas used to be common.
Most of the companies that made this configuration were either based in France or Belgium. They were also very handy for playing in pit orchestras where space was at a premium. Imagine playing a slide trombone in a joint where the patron sitting at a table could turn pages for you. Talk about a tight fit. These instruments appeared around the turn of the century and persisted up until about WWI.
These instruments are older than that. This design was by Adolphe Sax. Sax's years are 1814 to 1894. I'm not sure of the exact date, but this design hails from the mid-to-late 1860's.
TRILL TROMBONES
In the 1890's Frederick Innes established a band which conducted and was frequently the trombone soloist. He used a special 'trill' trombone, that had a valve that would lower the pitch 1/2 step, so he could trill from any position, and he could use it to lessen the extension for 6th and 7th positions, as well as reduce slide movement in rapid passages.
VENTURI TUBES
There have been several discussions on the Trombone Forum, but much of leadpipe design seems to be empirical and one step removed from occult art.
Some things are utterly counterintuitive, like some people having a better low range with a smaller venturi.
DOUBLE VALVE BASS TROMBONE
According to Grove, the Bb/F trigger trombone was invented by CF Sattler in Leipzig in 1839, and it was quickly copied by Sax and by Hallary.
SOPRANO TROMBONES
I own one soprano trombone from Jupiter in my collection.
I always endeavor to call it "slide trumpet".
Hi, Frostbrass. Jupiter is a soprano trombone, not a slide trumpet. A slide trumpet is a Baroque instrument with a little slide that shifts the pitch by a semitone, the idea being that by working the slide back and forth, you can use the partials to play a chromatic scale.
Speaking of taxonomy... how can one have a slide cornet (with so much cylindrical tubing) and not a slide trumpet?
There's no such thing as a slide cornet.
Every kind of brasswind that can change the length of tube must have a cylindrical part of tube. If you press all 3 valves on a cornet you add a length of cylindrical tube to the instrument’s total tubing. It is not much different with a slide instrument; on a slide cornet the inner tubes of the slides could be made conical to reduce the amount of cylindrical tubing. That would be a difficult process, so there is reason enough why no one has made a slide cornet so far.
Agreed. Yet Conn marketed those instruments as slide cornets ('A' in their scheme of lettering) rather than trumpets ('B' instruments). I was merely emphasized that there is a large difference even in the U.S. between what something is called and what it IS. In this case, the proportions are more trumpet-like, yet the instrument used a CORNET mouthpiece, with a smaller shank than a trumpet.
Even if someone managed to make an inner slide conical, there would be too much cylindrical tubing in the 7th position.
Getting back to the "slide trumpet", "slide cornet" thing . . .
Where the soprano trombone is concerned, these terms were originally used to distinguish between horns that used a trumpet as opposed to horns that used a cornet mouthpiece.
Both terms emerged with that usage in mind in the 1910's and 1920's, when the soprano trombone was a popular vaudeville and New Orlean's jazz instrument. It was laymen who used the term "slide trumpet", so as a marketing strategy, Conn came out with their "slide cornet", to cash in on cornet players looking for a soprano trombone.
In some discussions of a taxonomic nature, there would be no use of lay terminology, but I'm afraid a discussion of that nature is beyond most of our members. Unless you've studied taxonomy formally and have the type of technical background in musical instrument construction, acoustics and metallurgy that goes with it, there's little chance you'll be able to participate in and follow discussions in that field. I'm afraid that sort of thing is more the purview of a well-equipped university or technical school. Most of us basement tinkerers are operating on a "stone knives and bearskins" basis and budget, and don't have the expensive sophisticated equipment to get us into the big leagues. Even a basic piece of hardware such as a measly tabletop CNC starts in the $10,000 range. That amount would only represent a tiny down-payment on the sophisticated equipment used to analyze the properties and playing characteristics of brasswinds.
Anyway, what was happening in the 1910's and 1920's was trumpet players were buying soprano trombones as a second instrument, and amongst themselves were calling these horns "slide trumpets". In this, Conn saw the potential in the cornet market, and so came out with a soprano trombone that accepted a cornet mouthpiece. The strategy must have worked, because many of these instruments got made and have survived.
That said, the gap between what instruments is called and what they are is pretty pervasive. Many tubas aren't tubas. The modern trumpet is a type of cornet. The valved "French" horn is a German instrument. The modern valved corno da caccia is really a type of furst pleiss (post) horn. The modern fluglehorn is not a fluglehorn- its correct name is Infanterie-Modele Saxhorn. Fluglehorns have been extinct for somewhere between 80-100 years.
Conn describes it as a 16A Slide Cornet...
Trombones come in all kinds of bores, and bore profiles, stepped slides etc. from the turn of the century pea shooters to big double trigger bass trombones (until you start pulling triggers, you just have a big bore tenor).
I THINK the only difference where on the slide the tuner distribution of weight would be.
VIENNA VALVE TROMBONES
Vienna valve clusters in Belgian/French trombones
All Vienna valve clusters in trombones that I have seen are identical. That brings me to the conclusion that they were all made by the same manufacturer. The manufacturer that made the most of these trombones and kept on making them until 1923 is Van Cauwelaert. The way these valves are actuated is different than for example the ones on Vienna French-horns and the system even has a name. It is called Systeme Belgique. The only brand, I found till now, that is not Belgian that used it is F. Besson. They had a promotional poster in 1919 with a 4-valve version of these valves on a trombone. Since Van Cauwelaert used them the most and the longest it is thought that he was the maker of these valve clusters. Although this is not a proven fact. We have one other example of these valves in the catalog on a Melchior de Vries trumpet.
My understanding is that they were able to produce a very legato style of articulation. I've not played one, however, so it would be interesting to hear from someone with experience with them.
I'm not sure what you mean by legato articulation, but it does have some other characteristics than my other valve trombones. With all valves up the lead pipe goes straight no bend at all so just like a slide trombone. I think that's why it produces a more trombone sound than the others. If I slide (legato) from let's say C down it doesn't sound more legato than the others. You can still hear the steps like all valve instruments.
I thought it was supposed to change pitch with less disturbance (pop) than the piston valve.
Well not to my ears but maybe I must ask somebody to listen and give an opinion. As a player I don't hear or feel the difference. There is a different feel in pushing the valves though. I think when you push down you create an under-pressure in the valve slide.
CALVARY TROMBONES
It's not a "trombone-like" instrument. It's a 6-valve tenor trombone.
They were very common once upon a time. Don't be deceived by the valve lengths. They correspond to the slide positions is all. You don't play these horns like a three-valve. Open is position 1, valve 1 is position 2, and so on.
These were referred to as cavalry instruments, and these trombones were configured this way for dang good reason. They're to save the player from getting his teeth knocked out, should the horse decide to rear.
Lots of instruments used to be made with this 6-valve configuration. The thing about this configuration is that it plays perfectly in tune without requiring compensating valves, which is why 6-valve tubas used to be common.
Most of the companies that made this configuration were either based in France or Belgium. They were also very handy for playing in pit orchestras where space was at a premium. Imagine playing a slide trombone in a joint where the patron sitting at a table could turn pages for you. Talk about a tight fit. These instruments appeared around the turn of the century and persisted up until about WWI.
These instruments are older than that. This design was by Adolphe Sax. Sax's years are 1814 to 1894. I'm not sure of the exact date, but this design hails from the mid-to-late 1860's.
TRILL TROMBONES
In the 1890's Frederick Innes established a band which conducted and was frequently the trombone soloist. He used a special 'trill' trombone, that had a valve that would lower the pitch 1/2 step, so he could trill from any position, and he could use it to lessen the extension for 6th and 7th positions, as well as reduce slide movement in rapid passages.
VENTURI TUBES
There have been several discussions on the Trombone Forum, but much of leadpipe design seems to be empirical and one step removed from occult art.
Some things are utterly counterintuitive, like some people having a better low range with a smaller venturi.
DOUBLE VALVE BASS TROMBONE
According to Grove, the Bb/F trigger trombone was invented by CF Sattler in Leipzig in 1839, and it was quickly copied by Sax and by Hallary.