Double horns, belled and otherwise
Double Belled Horns
Feb 16th, 2007,
The normal Doubled Euphoniums are Euphoniums with a valve after the main valve section to change the sound (and air) to a smaller diameter bell. This second bell has a different sound / timber but is still in the same key. For Euphoniums its Bb and for altos its Eb (there are double belled altos, see Catalogue).
My dilemma is that my father is sure that the double belled euph at his high school was Bb Euphonium and Eb Alto on the second bell. Have you ever seen such a thing? Tuning would be horrible at best. I mostly trust him; he was the Euphonium player but he didn’t play the double belled horn.
Reply #1 - Feb 16th, 2007
I've never run across such an animal. Without valves like a Bb/F horn, I would think it impossible.
Is it possible that the alto-horn sized smaller bell has him confused? The small side of a double-belled euphonium DOES sound and look more like an alto-horn, but it's certainly at the same pitch as the main side.
Reply #2 - Feb 16th, 2007,
I'm thinking the Alto size bell combined with the Alto/Tenor/Baritone misnomers confused the "kids" and the remembered "facts" are tainted with these. But I really wonder because he plays my double bell and still wonders about the existence of the combined horn.
Reply #3 - Feb 16th, 2007,
The smaller bell could be easier to play up in the higher register, even with the same tuning as the large. The player of that instrument could have used that feature to ease himself playing in the high register, thus causing a misunderstanding that the smaller bell had a higher tuning.
Reply #4 - Feb 17th, 2007,
I'd agree with Kim, I don't think you could get enough valve tuning slide adjustment to go from Bb to Eb. Back in Civil War saxhorn days, at least when they were in a hurry to produce instruments, some of the altos and tenors came off the same bell mandrel and mostly all the same tubing except it was of different length. (I think that also implies something about their intended use, for rhythmic chording.)
Reply #5 - Feb 17th, 2007,
Talked to my Dad, he thinks he’s confused. Thats probably why nobody played it, because they thought it was Eb. And it wasn't. But now he can play mine.
Reply #6 - Feb 21st, 2008,
For some time in The Netherlands Bb/Eb bugles where quite popular it was two bugles in one because the tube length when the valve was pressed is just too big for comfort I'll show you a picture of it
Books
Archives Topics
Double horns, belled and otherwise Posts
Double mouthpiece
Mar 17th, 2006,
This is a thought that I had in a dream, a kind of franken horn with two sets of pipe systems, making it possible to make double harmonic tones. I'm in doubt where to put it, so it is going here for a start.
Would it be possible to construct a mouthpiece with a double throat, and a oval cup and rim, and thus serving two separate valve and bell systems - at the same time.
The backbore of the mouthpiece would be like normal mouthpieces then.
I've never seen or heard about that, maybe because it won’t work, what do you think?
I am pressed for sources now (though one can simply examine the horns...), but early non-adjustable cornet third valve slides were manufactured longer than they are today. I doubt that they were 2 whole steps, but longer than the minor third of today. Since the slides were not adjustable, the length was a compromise, and the performer was expected to lip both down AND up as required in compensation.
Today, the third valves of most cornets and trumpets are built a little shorter, and the performer is expected to lengthen the third valve slide with the fingers when required.
Is that what you were referring to?
They WERE other valve systems which used different lengths than the modern one, but they obviously didn't last long, which makes those instruments prime collector's items today.
Reply #1 - Mar 17th, 2006,
I think GSMONKS has done some experimenting with splitting the air in the instrument section and going to two bells, rather than at the mouthpiece. He may have some insight.
I recall grafting a trumpet backbore onto a trumpet mouthpiece, creating one mouthpiece with two shanks. As I remember, I put two on trumpets (one on each shank), but the result was as if I had a horn equal to both their lengths, so a semitone fingering = a quarter tone, etc.
Didn't get anything interesting, so I eventually tossed the mouthpiece after keeping it around for a while as an oddity.
Reply #3 - Mar 17th, 2006,
I recall Bill Bell (I think) playing a tuba with a euphonium built into it. requiring 2 players for the 1 horn.
The location of the split for the 2 horn on 1 mouthpiece will be critical. If it doesn’t work, move it.
The harmonic canceling may make for some real fun.
Reply #4 - Mar 17th, 2006,
If the idea was good, someone would have made use of it, I'm sure. My thought was that the splitting should happen so close to the mouthpiece as possible, to minimize mutual influence on the two systems. Or something with a membrane could keep the two air columns apart...
Reply #6 - Dec 5th, 2006,
Yes, King built this instrument for Bill Bell. The most recent information that I have is that the Bellophone is now owned by former Bell student Eli Newberger. Bell claimed that it was not a novelty instrument. Nor was it for two players at the same time. It was to provide the player with a tuba and a tenor tuba in one unit.
The Bellophone is featured prominently in a photograph of the Bachman Band at Asbury Park in 1931. In a H.N. White catalog, Bell heartily endorses the instrument:
" I want to say that Mr. White has just completed for me the greatest brass instrument ever built, in my opinion--a double baritone and tuba. It has been my dream for several years to have such an instrument. ... Mr. White told me last September that if I stayed at the factory a few days to help with the testing of the experimental work, he would build this instrument. I am quite positive that he is the only manufacturer in the world who would have consented to do this."
Here is a link to a photo of the instrument.
Reply #7 - Dec 5th, 2006,
Thats it!
As far as the 2 horns off one mouthpiece, at the same time. Maybe the mouthpiece would need to be grafted as to have 2 holes. This may require an odd bowl shape. kind of like a sink with 2 drains.
Reply #8 - Dec 5th, 2006,
Sort of a paraduba on steroids
I also note that most all early cornets did not have an 'octave key' (RH pinky ring, most commonly used to jam the mpc into the embouchure to enable notes in the 'higher register'.)
Another thing recently came to mind following a conversation with a retired high school band director and current fantastic trumpeter pertaining to one of my favorite mouthpieces, a Fitzall, which was made in Grand Rapids by a former York Band Instrument Co. machinist. This mouthpiece was available with a wide choice of cup shapes and sizes and with an also wide selection of rims. These were made for trumpet, cornet, alto horn, trombone/baritone/euphonium. The beauty for me, because of my downward embouchure caused by a rather severe overbite is that the parts can be loosened and rotated to change the angle of attack.
The thing that I see as a possibility is the addition to this forum of a listing of the many different mouthpiece designs that have been devised over history. Does this seem to be a viable endeavor?
Regarding the Parduba double cup mouthpieces, such as those used by Harry James, did the Parduba predate the Buescher Duo Cup of roughly the same design? I have a few of each in my collection.
Reply #11 - Jun 22nd, 2013,
I remember a guest on the "Mike Douglas Show"(I think) back in the 1960's who as a gag played three trumpets at one time. The mouthpiece had three shanks, but no close-up view was given of it. He fingered one trumpet with the right hand, another with the left, and the third trumpet was fingered with the back of the fingers of his left hand. It was three-part harmony coming from one player. The tone quality wasn't the best, and I wouldn't say it was all that musical, but he did it, and it was a lot of fun to see.
Mar 17th, 2006,
This is a thought that I had in a dream, a kind of franken horn with two sets of pipe systems, making it possible to make double harmonic tones. I'm in doubt where to put it, so it is going here for a start.
Would it be possible to construct a mouthpiece with a double throat, and a oval cup and rim, and thus serving two separate valve and bell systems - at the same time.
The backbore of the mouthpiece would be like normal mouthpieces then.
I've never seen or heard about that, maybe because it won’t work, what do you think?
I am pressed for sources now (though one can simply examine the horns...), but early non-adjustable cornet third valve slides were manufactured longer than they are today. I doubt that they were 2 whole steps, but longer than the minor third of today. Since the slides were not adjustable, the length was a compromise, and the performer was expected to lip both down AND up as required in compensation.
Today, the third valves of most cornets and trumpets are built a little shorter, and the performer is expected to lengthen the third valve slide with the fingers when required.
Is that what you were referring to?
They WERE other valve systems which used different lengths than the modern one, but they obviously didn't last long, which makes those instruments prime collector's items today.
Reply #1 - Mar 17th, 2006,
I think GSMONKS has done some experimenting with splitting the air in the instrument section and going to two bells, rather than at the mouthpiece. He may have some insight.
I recall grafting a trumpet backbore onto a trumpet mouthpiece, creating one mouthpiece with two shanks. As I remember, I put two on trumpets (one on each shank), but the result was as if I had a horn equal to both their lengths, so a semitone fingering = a quarter tone, etc.
Didn't get anything interesting, so I eventually tossed the mouthpiece after keeping it around for a while as an oddity.
Reply #3 - Mar 17th, 2006,
I recall Bill Bell (I think) playing a tuba with a euphonium built into it. requiring 2 players for the 1 horn.
The location of the split for the 2 horn on 1 mouthpiece will be critical. If it doesn’t work, move it.
The harmonic canceling may make for some real fun.
Reply #4 - Mar 17th, 2006,
If the idea was good, someone would have made use of it, I'm sure. My thought was that the splitting should happen so close to the mouthpiece as possible, to minimize mutual influence on the two systems. Or something with a membrane could keep the two air columns apart...
Reply #6 - Dec 5th, 2006,
Yes, King built this instrument for Bill Bell. The most recent information that I have is that the Bellophone is now owned by former Bell student Eli Newberger. Bell claimed that it was not a novelty instrument. Nor was it for two players at the same time. It was to provide the player with a tuba and a tenor tuba in one unit.
The Bellophone is featured prominently in a photograph of the Bachman Band at Asbury Park in 1931. In a H.N. White catalog, Bell heartily endorses the instrument:
" I want to say that Mr. White has just completed for me the greatest brass instrument ever built, in my opinion--a double baritone and tuba. It has been my dream for several years to have such an instrument. ... Mr. White told me last September that if I stayed at the factory a few days to help with the testing of the experimental work, he would build this instrument. I am quite positive that he is the only manufacturer in the world who would have consented to do this."
Here is a link to a photo of the instrument.
Reply #7 - Dec 5th, 2006,
Thats it!
As far as the 2 horns off one mouthpiece, at the same time. Maybe the mouthpiece would need to be grafted as to have 2 holes. This may require an odd bowl shape. kind of like a sink with 2 drains.
Reply #8 - Dec 5th, 2006,
Sort of a paraduba on steroids
I also note that most all early cornets did not have an 'octave key' (RH pinky ring, most commonly used to jam the mpc into the embouchure to enable notes in the 'higher register'.)
Another thing recently came to mind following a conversation with a retired high school band director and current fantastic trumpeter pertaining to one of my favorite mouthpieces, a Fitzall, which was made in Grand Rapids by a former York Band Instrument Co. machinist. This mouthpiece was available with a wide choice of cup shapes and sizes and with an also wide selection of rims. These were made for trumpet, cornet, alto horn, trombone/baritone/euphonium. The beauty for me, because of my downward embouchure caused by a rather severe overbite is that the parts can be loosened and rotated to change the angle of attack.
The thing that I see as a possibility is the addition to this forum of a listing of the many different mouthpiece designs that have been devised over history. Does this seem to be a viable endeavor?
Regarding the Parduba double cup mouthpieces, such as those used by Harry James, did the Parduba predate the Buescher Duo Cup of roughly the same design? I have a few of each in my collection.
Reply #11 - Jun 22nd, 2013,
I remember a guest on the "Mike Douglas Show"(I think) back in the 1960's who as a gag played three trumpets at one time. The mouthpiece had three shanks, but no close-up view was given of it. He fingered one trumpet with the right hand, another with the left, and the third trumpet was fingered with the back of the fingers of his left hand. It was three-part harmony coming from one player. The tone quality wasn't the best, and I wouldn't say it was all that musical, but he did it, and it was a lot of fun to see.