Cornet useability Aug 28th, 2007

I have just started rehearsing in a new turn of the century textile mill band. I think this is an awfully cool idea and expect to have a lot of fun with it. The director wishes to have at least period instrumentation (some sort of cornet) but would prefer period instruments.

I normally play a Flip Oakes short cornet, but I also have a Paul Beuscher cornet which I understand is a Bohland and Fuchs stencil.

This B&F looks like it was made around 1928 and plays okay, I suppose. But I really don't want to use the period mouthpiece. The leadpipe is way too small to accept the Curry mpc I normally use. Is there a clever way to mate the two? Do you have any experience replacing the leadpipe with something that will work with a modern mpc? Should I get a custom mpc made?

This horn's intonation is also bad. Could I kill two birds with one stone with a different leadpipe?

I don't have much money to put into this project and freshening up this horn will use up most of my budget.

Reply #1 - Aug 28th

If you are looking for a period sound, a modern mouthpiece will not get you there, even if you change receivers.

You might look around for a deeper mouthpiece that you are more comfortable with. I know it's not what you wanted to hear, but a horn designed for a small shank, deep mouthpiece will not perform well until you replace pretty much the entire horn.

None-the-less, if you decide to go the "leadpipe" route, it's easy enough to try one temporarily to see what the effect will be. Even if you use a lot of pressure, you may have to lash it on very securely, but you don't have to physically REPLACE it until you're sure that it's going to do what you want.

Remember though, that horns are designed as a whole unit, so that replacing just part may NOT have the effect you want. You may get your mouthpiece on there, but then you may find it too stuffy, even more out-of-tune, etc.

If it was me, and I didn't want to waste money, I wouldn't make big changes to a horn HOPING it will be better. I'd look for something that plays more the way I wanted. A modern flugelhorn will likely play the way it sounds you want and sound more like a turn-of-the-century cornet.


Reply #2 - Aug 28th, 2007
Thanks for the reply. Very good points. I should have been a little more specific, though. The mpc I have with the horn does not seem to be the right one for the horn either. It only goes into the leadpipe about 3/8". It is an old French cookie-cutter, though, so maybe I just don't know what I'm looking at.

And I do use a very deep mpc normally and try to get that big buttery sound. Is that not what I should be trying for? Or is it a tighter sound?

I guess my real problem is that I'm in the middle of a comeback (14 months in after 18 years off) and I don't want to confuse my mouth by playing two different mouthpieces frequently.

Reply #3 - Aug 28th, 2007
Sorry, didn't mean to assume too much...

If you're not sure, perhaps you can have someone reliable look at the horn and tell you if the mouthpiece is consistent with the horn...

I'd still think a horn you'd find easy to play is better than mucking around with modification, particularly if you may change your mind when you get back up to snuff.

Personally, I like a deeper cornet sound.

I understand that there are so many people making mouthpieces these days, if you could find one at a trumpet site, your money might be better spent getting one made with a smaller shank, for now.


Reply #4 - Aug 28th, 2007

The mill band is a cool idea. I'm involved in playing Civil War era music on a period cornet. I can say that in my case, a Schilke cornet mouthpiece fit the small receiver better than any other modern cornet mouthpiece I tried. True, a period mouthpiece will give a period sound, but in general, the sound's too diffuse for a smaller band or for outside performances. And that cookie-cutter piece will kill you on a long gig. Check out the Schalke’s and if they fit, buy one that's big enough to give you a good tone, at least as large as a straight 13 or 14.

The bad intonation on early cornets comes with the territory. You must use alternate fingerings and/or lip a lot of notes to get them in tune. All our instruments are that way, some worse than others. It's tiring, and makes you appreciate a good modern cornet, but that's the nature of the beast.


Reply #5 - Aug 28th, 2007
I guess I had better weigh in too. This may be the ideal time to try out a different mouthpiece(s). Before it gets too accustomed to a single configuration. I think that if you regularly use different mouthpieces, your embouchure will soon learn to be comfortable with both (all).

If you can find vintage mouthpieces, give them a try. You should be able to find 100-year-old mouthpieces that work comfortably. It isn't like the 150-year-old saxhorn mouthpieces.

You may find some modern mouthpieces that will work well for you, but many others will contribute to the poor intonation and performance of a vintage horn. So, I think the only way to figure it out is trial and error.

So, I guess I'd recommend trying to find a vintage mouthpiece and see how it works and then work backwards and try some modern ones and see if they can approximate the performance of the older one.

Reply #6 - Sep 4th, 2007

I love my B&F baritone, and it also has an odd mouthpiece receiver. What I have been considering is slightly reaming the receiver so that it is the modern standard size will fit.

This will permanently ruin the receiver of the horn, but it will make the horn playable for me.

My second choice is to replace the receiver (not the whole leadpipe) with a new one that will fit a standard mouthpiece. This is the best choice to preserve history.

Third choice is to buy a totally different horn. This is always a good idea, even if you are doing 1 or 2. Then you will have other problems to talk on this site about.

Last, I just thought of this, is to turn down the shank of a mouthpiece to fit the period horn? I think you should try this on something cheap first (like the spare mouthpiece you keep in the car).

Reply #7 - Sep 4th, 2007, at 4:13pm

I did something similar for my flugelhorn. There are 3 or 4 different flugelhorn mouthpiece shank sizes/tapers commonly available. I obtained a very nice Callet mouthpiece for my flugel only to discover that the shank was wrong. Bill Deiss, a good friend at the local brass repair/custom shop, turned the shank down to the correct taper and had the mouthpiece replated. I would always go this route rather than modifying a vintage or antique horn.

Reply #8 - Sep 5th, 2007

Thanks for all the ideas. I may try this route since I don't want to modify the horn irreversibly. I have a $15 Bundy cornet laying around which has a leadpipe they will accept my mouthpiece and is the same size as the downstream side of my receiver where it slides into the leadpipe. I can just cut the Bundy off with a hacksaw longer than I need and try it; cutting it off bit by bit until it plays in tune.

The obvious potential downside is that the Bundy bore size is much larger than the B&F receiver, so chances are I'll alter the tone at best or will never get the thing to play in tune at the worst. The good news is it barely plays in tune as it sits in stock configuration.

On a side note, the Mill Band is fun. The cornet section is one modern trumpet, a 1911 Conn cornet (I forget what model), a King Silverflair and my B&F. We even have an E flat clarinetist, too. Most of the horns, euphonium and tuba are modern instruments. There's going to be a little too much Sousa for my taste, but that comes with the territory I suppose. We're trying to get a grant for more period instruments, music and possibly uniforms. It's going to be pretty Mayberry.

Reply #9 - Sep 5th, 2007

Here's a copy of a post I made in a relevant thread. Assuming you can find a period piece that fits (or modify one to fit), I'd ultimately try for that solution. Playing a deep period piece may not blend too well if others are playing modern horns and mouthpieces, though. If you're not locked into your present period instrument, finding a better one with a normal-size receiver could also be an option. The period cornet I now play is not the one I began with, either ...

"An update - I played our Civil War band rehearsal last night on my period mouthpiece (on a period Bb cornet). Probably around 90 minutes of playing, and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. The sound quality and intonation were improved significantly. The horn seemed to project better and had a wider possible dynamic range. The downside was a slight decrease in endurance and ease of upper register playing, understandable given the extremely deep conical cup and unfamiliar rim, backbore, and throat. I'm sure this will improve with practice on it, though. The difference in sound quality was noted by other members of the band before I told them I was playing on a period piece. Maybe I'll be a "legit" 19th century cornetist soon!

Reply #10 - Sep 5th, 2007

I would suggest using the just receiver (or getting another) If you need to adjust the pitch of the instrument, it would be better to make those adjustments in the main tuning slide area.

Reply #11 - Sep 5th, 2007

I must agree with Kenton. Change only the short piece the mouthpiece fits into. This is called the receiver. The new Doc Severinsen (spelling is not my forte) trumpets have massive research associated with them showing that the leadpipe shape is very important to tone color and tuning. I would not replace the leadpipe unless it was severely damaged.

And I have decided to keep my horn original and use a period mouthpiece. I decided I don’t play it enough to warrant destroying it, yet.

Reply #13 - Sep 6th, 2007

Yes, I'm only planning on replacing the receiver and leaving the leadpipe alone. I'm going to see a local repairperson today and see what can be done.

Reply #14 - Oct 11th, 2007, at 8:15am
Well, after much research and disappointment, I have finally done what was suggested first. I bought a better cornet.

The Paul Beuscher was freshened up and will probably go up for sale.

To replace it I bought a 1904 Conn Conn-queror that plays like a dream. The valves are a little sticky and the main tuning slide is dented and has an amado water key(!) so I'll need to replace that. None of the other goodies came with it, but does it ever play beautifully! Intonation is no worse than my modern horn. I think after a good wash it will be perfect.

Keefer instrument Models
I got a bit side-tracked on building a Keefer model list. I did so by asking AI to give me a list of Keefer instruments. There is no way of knowing how accurate nor complete the list may be on its face. Yet, it is an interesting way to start.

Center Bore, a medium bore cornet with a centered tone, c.1916
Grenadier, a large bore cornet with a brilliant tone, c.1920
Stentor, a small bore cornet with a mellow tone, c.1922
K-W, a high-quality cornet endorsed by Ernest Williams, c.1928
Intonatic, a cornet with a reverse third slide and a tuning adjuster, c.1940



JR, a model endorsed by trumpet player Ernest Williams, c.1921
Philharmonic, for concert band or symphony work, c.1924
Milharmonic, for military band or orchestra, c.1924
Dansharmonic, for dance band work, c.1924
Williams, a high-quality model imitating the F. Besson design, c.1928
Presentation, a gold-plated and heavily engraved model, c.1940

Alto cornet, c.1916
Alto horn, c.1919
Alto trumpet, c.1924


Altophone, c.1916
Altophone, c.1919
Altophone, c.1924

Mellophone, c.1911
Mellophone, c.1919
Mellophone, c.1924
Mellophone, c.1940

French horn, c.1911
French horn, c.1919
French horn, c.1924
French horn, c.1940

Tenor valve trombone, c.1911
Tenor slide trombone, c.1915
Harmonic model, c.1924

Keefer-Simons model, a “special” model with “JR” in keystone, c.1925
Intonatic model, a trombone with a reverse third slide and a tuning adjuster, c.1940


Center Bore, a medium bore baritone with a centered tone, c.1916
Grenadier, a large bore baritone with a brilliant tone, c.1920
Stentor, a small bore baritone with a mellow tone, c.1922
K-W, a high-quality baritone endorsed by Ernest Williams, c.1928
Intonatic, a baritone with a reverse third slide and a tuning adjuster, c.1940

Double Bell Euphonium, a rare model with two bells and five valves, c.1912
Center Bore, a medium bore euphonium with a centered tone, c.1916
Grenadier, a large bore euphonium with a brilliant tone, c.1920
Stentor, a small bore euphonium with a mellow tone, c.1922
Intonatic, a euphonium with a reverse third slide and a tuning adjuster, c.1940

E flat tuba, 3 piston, c.1916
BB flat helicon, 3 piston, c.1918
BB flat sousaphone, 3 rotary, c.1920
EE flat tuba, 3 pistons, c.19222
Bb Baritone, 3 piston, c. 19232
BB flat sousaphone, 4 piston, c.1939
BB flat sousaphone, 3 piston, c.1941