Rims
Jan 27th, 2005,
This is what I have collected so far on the various stylings of the edges of bells. The labels for the various styles come from the region where they once predominated.
Styles of rim
Plain: The bell just ends with no decoration.
Garland: A thin piece of metal of varying width that is soldered to the bell. Some are rolled around the edge of the bell (bohemian), and some are positioned by rolling a piece of metal around the bell and garland (Dresdan)
Iron or brass Wire: Some are soldered to the edge of the bell (Mainz), some are encased by rolling into the bell (French)
Combination of Garland and Wire: some solder the wire to the garland and then roll the garland around the edge of the bell (Nurnberg), some roll the garland around both the wire and the bell edge (Saxon), and some roll the bell around both the wire and the edge of the garland (Italian).
Solder-filled: the bell is rolled and filled with solder.
Reply #1 - Jun 13th, 2007
I have a Martin trumpet that someone has asked me if it has a "French flat beaded rim or the more common rolled rim?" I am stumped. I know what the rolled rim is, but can someone explain (maybe with a picture) the French flat beaded rim? I can't seem to find any information specific to that rim...
Reply #3 - Jun 14th, 2007,
I would REALLY like to see what's involved in hand-rolling a rim the old-fashioned way. I've seen it done with various types of machines, but I don't intend to buy one because of the expense (same reason I don't buy a CNC).
Reply #4 - Jun 14th, 2007,
Thanks! That is one of the pages I came across in my own research. I just can't figure out which one of those would be considered "French Beaded Flat Rim"... The French rim they have listed appears to be a rim rolled over a wire...
Reply #5 - Jun 14th, 2007,
I wish that I had the ability to take and send photos. If I were, I would send some pictures of my York Master Model and Symphonic trumpets, which both have the rim that you have been questioned about. On another note, (not being facetious), I have yet to hear of ANY Martin with such a bell edge treatment. If I am in error, I am certain that one of our other section leaders will quickly correct me.
Reply #6 - Jun 14th, 2007,
This is all I can imagine as a "French flat beaded rim", as it has both the French wire and a longer garland.
I, too, always thought of a French rim as the modern rolled-around-a-wire rim. There are rims which are like the Conn Vocabell, and rims which are like the French bead, but are turned back without being wrapped around a wire.
I would imagine that the best course is to just reply that the horn either has a modern-style rim in every respect (if it does) or ask for more information.
Reply #7 - Jun 14th, 2007,
Thanks again! The rim appears to me to be a standard rolled rim but since I wasn't sure of the definition of the "French flat beaded" I didn't want to give him a sure answer. Thanks for your help!
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Instrument Characteristics Topics
Rims Posts
Rims and Garlands
Dec 28th, 2005,
Hey, guys, you see how the bells on these horns are done. I'm guessing what they did was cover the end with a sheet before rolling the rim. But why did they do this at all? Why not leave the bell plain, as is done today? Was this over-leaf just for looks, or was it supposed to serve some purpose?
I would really like to see photos of a guy holding one of these and working the keys. I'm assuming the right hand works the top keys with the thumb and 1st two fingers, whilst the left hand works the bottom keys. Is it held upright, or tipped on one side or the other?
Also- how would you go about cutting the key-seat rings, making them flush with the curve of the tubing? How would you calculate and cut the curve? There must be some formula, so that you can either cut a piece of sheet metal in the right shape, then roll it into a circle, silver solder the ends together, then plate over it to hide the seam; or else the circles are pieces of tubing that are cut the right way, with a bow in them to match the flare and taper of the cylinder.
<http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn48A1940image.html
Reply #2 - Dec 29th, 2005, at 2:17am
You see how the bells on these horns are done. I'm guessing what they did was cover the end with a sheet before rolling the rim. But why did they do this at all? Why not leave the bell plain, as is done today? Was this over-leaf just for looks, or was it supposed to serve some purpose?
What the heck kind of "cornet" is that? There's no lead pipe, not unless it's hidden inside that length of straight tubing. Without a lead-pipe, and with only conical tubing in the bell-section, that makes it a trumpet, not a cornet, regardless of what mouthpiece it uses.
Seeing a horn without a rolled rim, I can see why a rolled rim is preferable. It's a lot stronger, for one thing. It would also hold the bell's shape a lot better.
Conn was bad for misnaming, and in some cases mis-representing their instruments in their sales literature. They claim that that horn played like a true cornet. If that lead-pipe is in fact straight tubing, then that claim is erroneous. Conn did a good many similar things in the past. For instance, they claimed that their Bb soprano trombone was a "slide cornet"- this, by it was played with a cornet mouthpiece. The problem is, to be a slide cornet it would have to have been a conical-bore instrument, which it was not. It was a cylindrical-bore horn with an interesting feature for so small a trombone- tuning in the slide.
Reply #3 - Dec 29th, 2005,
That horn was my Keyed Bugle.
gsmonks, I assume you are referring to Garland? It is a thin piece of metal that is applied after the bell is made. It is wrapped around the bell wire to hold it. They were put on mostly for looks, but that is where the engraving is as well. However, I own anon keyed bugles that also have the garland.
As for holding it, yes you hold it upright. The right hand works the top keys, and the bottom hand works the bottom keys. This keyed bugle has 6 keys, but they came with as many as 11, so each hand uses all fingers.
I have a picture of this keyed bugle all taken apart during restoration - maybe that would be interesting to post?
As for a leadpipe, there is one on the other side which you can't see, except for the pigtail sticking out. It plays in Bb with the pigtail and C without. It was tuned by adding very short adapters between the receiver and the mouthpiece.
This is not a cornet or trumpet - it is a bugle, which if you added "normal" valves, would be a flugelhorn today.
Reply #4 - Dec 29th, 2005,
There is, in fact, a mouthpipe in that horn, which is played with a cornet mouthpiece. It was Conn's effort to make the horn 'art deco' which caused them to conceal the slides (much like the 'art deco' water key treatment).
Reply #5 - Dec 29th, 2005
There is, in fact, a mouthpipe in that horn, which is played with a cornet mouthpiece. It was Conn's effort to make the horn 'art deco' which caused them to conceal the slides (much like the 'art deco' water key treatment).
Okay, that's a first for me. I've never seen another example of a cornet/trumpet with a hidden lead-pipe. As I say, it's normally a trombone feature, because with trombones there's no choice but to place the lead-pipe on the inside of the tube.
This is very interesting. Do you know how it was done? Did they drill out a dowel of brass, or did they save weight by making it a composite of inner and outer tubes? Could you take it apart to check?
Does not having a bell-rim affect the way these horns play in any discernable way? I've always wondered if the bell-rim doesn't favor certain frequencies, which is something hand-hammering might off-set, in the same way hand-hammering prevents cymbals from putting out standing tones.
In my university days I tried a few sackbutts that were rimless, but without having a near-identical horn at hand with a rim, there's no basis for comparison.
I personally don't think that using a trumpet or cornet mouthpiece makes much difference, if any. I've taken receivers off horns and switched them, and neither I nor anyone I know could hear any difference. And yet I know guys who will pull their hair and their eyeballs out in consternation at the mere mention of doing this.
From Christine Derksen's Conn Loyalist:
Vocabell This is the name given to bells that don't have a bell wire. Supposedly, the bell is so thick/heavy that it did not need a bell wire for strength. According to Conn, "The Vocabell is more than bell without a wire in the rim. It is a solid metal bell in which the thickness of the bell bottom is scientifically graduated to permit maximum vibration in sympathy with the vibrating tone column in the instrument. Delicate harmonics dampened out or muffled by the bell with a wire in the rim sound full, pure and free on this new principal bell, enriching and strengthening the tone. Columbia Broadcasting System Studios in New York made tests on the Vocabell and showed it has from 12 to 15 decibels greater power with the same amount of effort than conventional bells." Used on the 40B and 48B Connqueror. (Source: Conn catalog)"
Reply #7 - Dec 29th, 2005,
Fascinating! I wonder why this design fell out of favour?
Reply #8 - Dec 29th, 2005,
I can only assume that the difference wasn't noticeable to enough people to offset the cost/strangeness of the look. In the same way I have always wondered why tuba design didn't change after Fred Marzan's slant rotor tubas were introduced. After having played mine, I think that the the upward-placed tuning slide is the only way to go, and I loved the small resistance playing. But, to each his own...
Reply #9 - Dec 29th, 2005,
They are vulnerable, even if Conn claims something different. I have a (non -Conn) trumpet with such a bell, it plays well but the bell had damage that a garland would have prevented. My first impression of that bell is also "somewhat cheap". My second impression is that the sound is pretty good.
In most cases it is the first impression that sells instruments!
Reply #10 - Dec 29th, 2005,
In reading the Reynolds site, I stumbled on this comment, and thought I'd note it here.
"the Contempora tenor trombones featured a nickel-silver tone ring, or "kranz", around the edge of the bell flare. The tone ring helps focus and project the sound without breaking up at louder volumes. "
I was also looking at the garland on my Civil War horn this evening. It appears that it is wrapped around the wire, and then soldered to the bell on the inside edge. (I'll probably need to take pictures, if this description is inadequate)
Reply #11 - Dec 30th, 2005,
The garland on my Mirafone CC tuba obviously never went "out of style"...
Reply #13 - Dec 30th, 2005,
My Getzen Super Deluxe trumpet and cornet look to have a #4 garland, (Krantz ring). IMHO, this was added to the bells of these top-of-the-line models to hopefully protect the very thin bell material from crumpling, and, to give the horn a custom quality look, like the top-of-the-line Olds horns and many of the Germanic instruments. It was not very successful in adding structural integrity. Thos bells still got crushed VERY easily. Getzen 'claimed' that it produced a " tone balanced " sound, whatever that might have meant. This is not meant to condemn in any way the Getzen offering, as I use mine on a regular basis in my playing in two community bands.
Reply #14 - Dec 30th, 2005,
Ahh, once again, how do we separate marketing from innovation?
Many French horns are still made with "Kranz" or garlands on the bells. Some as special order and some as standard equipment. Finke horns fall into the latter category. As I understand it, the garland reinforces and stiffens the flare at what would be its thinnest area (especially the way modern bells are spun from a flat disc). Because the flare is thicker and stiffer there, you have more "room" at the louder end of your dynamic range before reaching that ultra-brassy "overblown” range. Generally, hornists avoid that sound at all costs!
Dec 28th, 2005,
Hey, guys, you see how the bells on these horns are done. I'm guessing what they did was cover the end with a sheet before rolling the rim. But why did they do this at all? Why not leave the bell plain, as is done today? Was this over-leaf just for looks, or was it supposed to serve some purpose?
I would really like to see photos of a guy holding one of these and working the keys. I'm assuming the right hand works the top keys with the thumb and 1st two fingers, whilst the left hand works the bottom keys. Is it held upright, or tipped on one side or the other?
Also- how would you go about cutting the key-seat rings, making them flush with the curve of the tubing? How would you calculate and cut the curve? There must be some formula, so that you can either cut a piece of sheet metal in the right shape, then roll it into a circle, silver solder the ends together, then plate over it to hide the seam; or else the circles are pieces of tubing that are cut the right way, with a bow in them to match the flare and taper of the cylinder.
<http://www.xs4all.nl/~cderksen/Conn48A1940image.html
Reply #2 - Dec 29th, 2005, at 2:17am
You see how the bells on these horns are done. I'm guessing what they did was cover the end with a sheet before rolling the rim. But why did they do this at all? Why not leave the bell plain, as is done today? Was this over-leaf just for looks, or was it supposed to serve some purpose?
What the heck kind of "cornet" is that? There's no lead pipe, not unless it's hidden inside that length of straight tubing. Without a lead-pipe, and with only conical tubing in the bell-section, that makes it a trumpet, not a cornet, regardless of what mouthpiece it uses.
Seeing a horn without a rolled rim, I can see why a rolled rim is preferable. It's a lot stronger, for one thing. It would also hold the bell's shape a lot better.
Conn was bad for misnaming, and in some cases mis-representing their instruments in their sales literature. They claim that that horn played like a true cornet. If that lead-pipe is in fact straight tubing, then that claim is erroneous. Conn did a good many similar things in the past. For instance, they claimed that their Bb soprano trombone was a "slide cornet"- this, by it was played with a cornet mouthpiece. The problem is, to be a slide cornet it would have to have been a conical-bore instrument, which it was not. It was a cylindrical-bore horn with an interesting feature for so small a trombone- tuning in the slide.
Reply #3 - Dec 29th, 2005,
That horn was my Keyed Bugle.
gsmonks, I assume you are referring to Garland? It is a thin piece of metal that is applied after the bell is made. It is wrapped around the bell wire to hold it. They were put on mostly for looks, but that is where the engraving is as well. However, I own anon keyed bugles that also have the garland.
As for holding it, yes you hold it upright. The right hand works the top keys, and the bottom hand works the bottom keys. This keyed bugle has 6 keys, but they came with as many as 11, so each hand uses all fingers.
I have a picture of this keyed bugle all taken apart during restoration - maybe that would be interesting to post?
As for a leadpipe, there is one on the other side which you can't see, except for the pigtail sticking out. It plays in Bb with the pigtail and C without. It was tuned by adding very short adapters between the receiver and the mouthpiece.
This is not a cornet or trumpet - it is a bugle, which if you added "normal" valves, would be a flugelhorn today.
Reply #4 - Dec 29th, 2005,
There is, in fact, a mouthpipe in that horn, which is played with a cornet mouthpiece. It was Conn's effort to make the horn 'art deco' which caused them to conceal the slides (much like the 'art deco' water key treatment).
Reply #5 - Dec 29th, 2005
There is, in fact, a mouthpipe in that horn, which is played with a cornet mouthpiece. It was Conn's effort to make the horn 'art deco' which caused them to conceal the slides (much like the 'art deco' water key treatment).
Okay, that's a first for me. I've never seen another example of a cornet/trumpet with a hidden lead-pipe. As I say, it's normally a trombone feature, because with trombones there's no choice but to place the lead-pipe on the inside of the tube.
This is very interesting. Do you know how it was done? Did they drill out a dowel of brass, or did they save weight by making it a composite of inner and outer tubes? Could you take it apart to check?
Does not having a bell-rim affect the way these horns play in any discernable way? I've always wondered if the bell-rim doesn't favor certain frequencies, which is something hand-hammering might off-set, in the same way hand-hammering prevents cymbals from putting out standing tones.
In my university days I tried a few sackbutts that were rimless, but without having a near-identical horn at hand with a rim, there's no basis for comparison.
I personally don't think that using a trumpet or cornet mouthpiece makes much difference, if any. I've taken receivers off horns and switched them, and neither I nor anyone I know could hear any difference. And yet I know guys who will pull their hair and their eyeballs out in consternation at the mere mention of doing this.
From Christine Derksen's Conn Loyalist:
Vocabell This is the name given to bells that don't have a bell wire. Supposedly, the bell is so thick/heavy that it did not need a bell wire for strength. According to Conn, "The Vocabell is more than bell without a wire in the rim. It is a solid metal bell in which the thickness of the bell bottom is scientifically graduated to permit maximum vibration in sympathy with the vibrating tone column in the instrument. Delicate harmonics dampened out or muffled by the bell with a wire in the rim sound full, pure and free on this new principal bell, enriching and strengthening the tone. Columbia Broadcasting System Studios in New York made tests on the Vocabell and showed it has from 12 to 15 decibels greater power with the same amount of effort than conventional bells." Used on the 40B and 48B Connqueror. (Source: Conn catalog)"
Reply #7 - Dec 29th, 2005,
Fascinating! I wonder why this design fell out of favour?
Reply #8 - Dec 29th, 2005,
I can only assume that the difference wasn't noticeable to enough people to offset the cost/strangeness of the look. In the same way I have always wondered why tuba design didn't change after Fred Marzan's slant rotor tubas were introduced. After having played mine, I think that the the upward-placed tuning slide is the only way to go, and I loved the small resistance playing. But, to each his own...
Reply #9 - Dec 29th, 2005,
They are vulnerable, even if Conn claims something different. I have a (non -Conn) trumpet with such a bell, it plays well but the bell had damage that a garland would have prevented. My first impression of that bell is also "somewhat cheap". My second impression is that the sound is pretty good.
In most cases it is the first impression that sells instruments!
Reply #10 - Dec 29th, 2005,
In reading the Reynolds site, I stumbled on this comment, and thought I'd note it here.
"the Contempora tenor trombones featured a nickel-silver tone ring, or "kranz", around the edge of the bell flare. The tone ring helps focus and project the sound without breaking up at louder volumes. "
I was also looking at the garland on my Civil War horn this evening. It appears that it is wrapped around the wire, and then soldered to the bell on the inside edge. (I'll probably need to take pictures, if this description is inadequate)
Reply #11 - Dec 30th, 2005,
The garland on my Mirafone CC tuba obviously never went "out of style"...
Reply #13 - Dec 30th, 2005,
My Getzen Super Deluxe trumpet and cornet look to have a #4 garland, (Krantz ring). IMHO, this was added to the bells of these top-of-the-line models to hopefully protect the very thin bell material from crumpling, and, to give the horn a custom quality look, like the top-of-the-line Olds horns and many of the Germanic instruments. It was not very successful in adding structural integrity. Thos bells still got crushed VERY easily. Getzen 'claimed' that it produced a " tone balanced " sound, whatever that might have meant. This is not meant to condemn in any way the Getzen offering, as I use mine on a regular basis in my playing in two community bands.
Reply #14 - Dec 30th, 2005,
Ahh, once again, how do we separate marketing from innovation?
Many French horns are still made with "Kranz" or garlands on the bells. Some as special order and some as standard equipment. Finke horns fall into the latter category. As I understand it, the garland reinforces and stiffens the flare at what would be its thinnest area (especially the way modern bells are spun from a flat disc). Because the flare is thicker and stiffer there, you have more "room" at the louder end of your dynamic range before reaching that ultra-brassy "overblown” range. Generally, hornists avoid that sound at all costs!