Dual Serial Numbers (Bell & Valve)
Dec 13th, 2005
When horns such as Distin or Boosey have different numbers (one on the bell, and another on the valve block), which one takes precedence? The earliest? Latest? I have always assumed that the bell number was the actual, and that valve blocks may have been "in stock" for these manufacturers, awaiting a completed horn based on them, which was engraved with the 'actual number'.
Reply #1 - Dec 13th
That would make logical sense.
So, for the sake of discussion, if the maker intended the valve serial# to be the primary reference number, then what else could the bell serial # represent?
Reply #2 - Dec 13th, 2005
Has anyone ever investigated what valve units are interchangeable? This may add some light. I always thought the valve# was the serial # and the bell represented the schools number? for school or band owned this makes sense but the #'s on the Besson sure look like serial #'s and not inventory #'s.
Reply #3 - Dec 15th, 2005
Without having bore sizes, it would be impossible to say, and I don't know if putting the valve block together allows one to build pistons of a variety of bore sizes. As a rough estimate, I expect one could group piston valve blocks together for:
Eb, C, Bb/A cornets; Eb, C, Bb/A trumpets
alto horns; mellophones; Eb valve trombones; piston valve horns; cornophones, etc.
Bb valve trombones; baritones; euphoniums
Eb, C, BBb basses; Eb, BBb helicons and sousaphones
Reply #4 - Dec 15th, 2005
Some of the early saxhorn makers would use the same valve assembly AND bells for alto horns and tenor horns. They only varied the length of tubing.
Reply #5 - Dec 15th, 2005
Well, I was only thinking of Distin and Boosey, where we already know there are two numbers AND a disconnect...
Reply #7 - Dec 16th, 2005
Big Question: Do we find dual #'s on horns sold in Europe?
My thought is that there might have been some weird #'s for US horns?
Reply #8 - Dec 16th, 2005, at 10:15pm
Distin started in Europe, then moved to the US (still using dual umbers), and Boosey (who bought Distin's London shop) was English.
Reply #9 - Dec 16th, 2005, at 11:04pm
Yes, I know all that. But what I am wondering is if I go to London, will I find dual #'s or will I only find this oddity here in the USA?
Reply #10 - Dec 17th
Of course. Sorry. But you will find dual numbers on Boosey horns there, too. On ones that have different engraving for England, also Canada, India, etc.
Reply #11 - Dec 21st, 2005
I believe that the dual serial numbers on early Boosey instruments reflect the fact that different parts were made at different times and by different people. The Boosey archives specifically identify the person who made the valves as distinct from the one who made the horn. So, if I understand this rightly (please correct me if not-- I'm interested too), neither serial number--valve or bell-- takes priority. They're just different. Most serial number indexes date the horn by the bell serial number though.
See Arnold Myers Record of Existing Boosey Instruments for more information about this. It's available on the web-- you'll probably find it through google.
Reply #12 - Dec 21st, 2005
So, if I understand what you are saying, then neither serial number would indicate a date of manufacture in the sense that if the valves were made by group A and the bells were made by group B, then presumably group A and group B sent their product to group C who would (probably randomly) select a bell and a valve cluster and create a horn for sale.
Reply #13 - Dec 21st, 2005
When I worked at York we got valve clusters from Blessing for our artist grade horns in some cases. Currently Roy Lawler gets his valve clusters from Getzen, so it is not an unknown practice in the brass musical instrument industry.
As to serial numbers, I 'think' that York stamped their own numbers on the valve clusters of those horns made with parts from other sources.
Reply #14 - Dec 21st, 2005
Blessing must have done quite a business in valve clusters! He made them for Bach too.
Reply #15 - Dec 21st, 2005
My thought is that the bell engraving followed assembly of the horn, before plating.
These are the days before the assembly line.
I believe what he is saying is that the valve number represents when the valve cluster was manufactured, and the bell number represents when the horn was completed using the "stocked" valve cluster. Thus, they are both accurate for that part of the horn which they represent: valves and finish.
Reply #16 - Dec 21st, 2005
If memory serves, I 'think' that I once heard that he also made them for one of the other Elkhart builders, (Conn perhaps).
Reply #17 - Dec 28th, 2005
OK, to further confuse things.
I just got some seemingly solid information on the Distin Pocket cornet listed.
According to Arnold Myers, this horn was one of a batch made in 1872. The valves were made by Derkinderen between 4th and 20th of March 1872. The instrument was made by Hoyer assisted by Seidel.
And we know the numbers:
Serial#11658
Valves 13855
Now, how do we make sense of that?