Pitch

Dec 4th, 2005

Many early 20th century American Low Pitch horns seem to have been built to the Vienna Congress standard of Low Pitch at A=435. These horns either play flat now or have been shortened to accommodate the modern A=440 pitch.

My Conn double-belled baritone, clearly a professional horn which was built for Simone Mantia, was built to this standard, for example.


Reply #1 - Dec 5th, 2005

I assume I should measure the pitch using a vintage Mouthpiece, but how far out should the main slide be? I assume you should be able to push it in a little or pull out a little to tune?


Reply #2 - Dec 6th, 2005

While indexing "The Musical Courier" I came across many citations about how musical pitch in the U.S. as nonstandard as in Europe. Europeans began to standardize pitch before the U.S. The U.S. keyboard makers pushed for adopting the European A=435 and later A=400. A few articles very interestingly stated that pitch in New York was so much lower than in Chicago that when concerts were given in Chicago featuring an East Coast singer, a second piano tuned to the lower pitch would be required or the singer would not perform. While I realize that situation might be a mixed blessing, it could help date horns and even identify the location where they were made -- possibly.

The Freeborn G. Smith collection of tuning forks at the Smithsonian Institution is probably the single most important resource for researching late 19th century pitch. If desired, I do have a somewhat lengthy article written by Mr. Smith printed in "The Musical Courier" that lists various pitches, modern and historic.

Reply #3 - Dec 6th, 2005
Hmm. It does sound like something that may be worth exploring to see if it has insights into the brass instrument world.

Reply #4 - Dec 6th, 2005

A company still in business was very influential in the harangue about pitch that once occurred. The Deagan Co. of Chicago, Ill., maker of symphonic vibraharps, marimbas, bells, and chimes should be consulted on this subject as they were very much involved in all of the disputes per proper pitch, as can be readily imagined, considering that their instruments had to leave the factory already perfectly tuned. They were not tunable downward, as it requires grinding away some metal, raising the tone, to bring them into proper pitch from being a bit flat after casting and polishing. Adding metal to any of their instruments to lower the pitch only results in unwanted under and overtones, in other words, a nasty sound.

Reply #5 - Dec 6th, 2005

I know it's not the answer you're looking for but depends. On you, the mouthpiece, what pitch standard the horn was built to, etc., But you assume correctly, you SHOULD have room to push it in a bit, and it shouldn't be out too far for its NATIVE KEY. Cornets were often expandable to A from Bb, and altos from F to Eb. Or they may have also made use of slides. But one should have room to go down OR up, particularly with the pitch being so fluid pre-c.1920.


Reply #6 - Mar 3rd, 2006

In 1917, the American Federation of Musicians pressed for a standard pitch at A=440. The Annual Piano Technicians Conferences attempted the same from 1916 through 1919. There was a considerable effort by many musicians to establish 440 standards during this period, but no standard occurred.

In 1939, Germany attempted to set 440 as standard pitch, but was unsuccessful. A second congress was held in London in 1953, to again attempt to impose 440 internationally.



As recently as 1971, the European Community passed a recommendation calling for the still non-existent international pitch standard. It was reported that that A=440 is still not an international standard. Lower tuning was common in Moscow (A=435). British church organs were still tuned to A=425, and the Vienna Philharmonic played at A=450.

Reply #7 - Nov 19th, 2007

"Trying to establish an understanding of the variations of pitch standard in the 19th and early 20th centuries is problematic at best. Despite a certain level of international agreement on a standard, many variations existed. The following discussion is designed to provide a general framework for understanding the design characteristics of bands instruments in the early 20th century. Much of the information for the following discussion was taken from The History of Musical Pitch in Tuning the Pianoforte by Edward E. Swenson, which can be found at:

http://www.mozartpiano.com/pitch.html">http://www.mozartpiano.com/pitch.html

The notion of a standard of pitch has been an issue for instrument makers for many centuries. Today, we assume that instruments are built to a pitch standard of A=440, but this was not always the case. In the mid-19th century, as the popularity of bands was beginning to grow, the number of different pitch standards was significant. In the early part of the 19th century, the general pitch standard was as low as A=420 (modern Ab is 415). The standard rose quite dramatically throughout the course of the century so that by the end of the century in some venues, pitch was as high as A=457 (modern Bb is A=466), this despite the fact that a standard of A=435 was established by a French Commission in 1859, and in 1887 this was formally adopted by the Vienna Congress, an international conference on musical pitch.

Many American band instrument makers in the later 19th century followed the general trend of building instruments at a higher standard. By the end of he century, however, the influence of the trend toward low pitch was also evident, perhaps owing to the 1887 resolution by the Vienna Congress. As a result, by the beginning of the 20th century until about 1920, American instrument manufacturers were faced with the dilemma of having to accommodate at least two different pitch standards, which were termed "high pitch" (around A=452) and "low pitch" (around A=440).

How brass instrument manufacturers accommodated these two standards is most interesting. Some instruments were provided with two sets of main slides or with sleeves which could be inserted in the main slide to lengthen it. Some York tubas are equipped with an extra "doughnut" of tubing, located near the main slide, which can be incorporated into the main slide tubing by rearranging the slides. In each case, the objective is to lengthen or shorten the main slide so that the instrument could be tuned to the appropriate standard. Valve slides if application could be pulled or pushed in to accommodate the main tuning.

While the practice of manufacturing instruments which could play at two standards was abandoned about 1920, some manufacturers continued to produce some high-pitch instruments for a few years. Eventually, of course, A=440 became the standard."

Reply #8 - Sep 17th, 2014

I suspected that this would be the reason why my Valve bass trombone has a tuning slide that can go nearly to B or A. I'd like to discuss this further if anyone is interested.

Reply #9 - Sep 18th, 2014

Horns from around the turn of the 20th Century up to about the 1920s, generally had several methods of accommodating two or more pitches as well as adapting to high pitch and low pitch. And the standards in Europe were somewhat different than in the US. Some use bits - i.e., extensions that went between the lead pipe and the mouthpiece, long telescoping tubing, and swap-able tubing were heavily used.

Reply #10 - Dec 26th, 2017, at 8:39am

I am currently looking at a cornopean that is offered for sale. It has no engraving other than numbers on the valve casings and "d.e.p." on the mouthpiece receiver. I have seen other cornopeans on the internet that have "L.P." for "Low Pitch" stamped on the mouthpiece receiver. So maybe d.e.p. is another pitch denominator? If so, what could it be?

Reply #11 - Jul 1st, 2018

A modern example, I have a Paxman Double Descant made for a very well known, living horn player, who played with the LSO. The descant tuning slide is so short, that I could not pull it out far enough to play in 440. The low F (or Bb depending on the crooks inserted) plays in 440 if the main tuning slide is pulled to within 1/2" of its full length. Best I can tell is that it was built to play right around 446-448

Reply #12 - Jul 1st, 2018

Many modern orchestras tune A= above 440...

Predicting Pitch
Reply #13 - Dec 14th, 2007

Here are my initial thoughts on how to establish a measurement by which I can calculate an approximate percentage from a photo of an instrument:
1) Establish an assumed fixed measurement for scale: bell diameter? valve height?
2) using this measurement as a scale, establish the approximate lengths of slides and anything else that can be assumed to be cylindrical, ie long bell tails. Haven't decided what to do with tuning slide bows, as some were conical.
3) determine whether the instrument is at high or low pitch, or in A
4) subtract approx measurements from an approx sounding length of 53"(lp Bb) or 50"(hp Bb) or 56" (A)
5) calculate relative percentage of cylindrical vs conical.
The only monkey wrenches in the mix are the high/low/A pitch variable and how to approach the tuning slide bow(s)

Reply #14 - Dec 14th

We have a section on predicting pitch from a picture, which I believe uses some of the same thinking you are talking of.

But in using the above, it is most reliable on larger instruments and using the 3rd valve slide as the item of measure. I don't know if you are going to get the precision you will need with soprano instruments.
Also, if the camera isn't perpendicular with the instrument, there will be distortion in the picture that will throw the measurements off.
But probably the only way to test it would be to take some pictures of horns we do have, and then try the methods on them and then it can be verified by actual measurement.

Reply #15 - Dec 14th, 2007,

I'm certainly not out for measuring with surgical precision. I mostly want to see if i can get an idea as to how the trend toward the "trumpetization" of the cornet around the turn of the 20c. to the 1920s manifested itself in bore proportion. +/- 5% (= about 2 5/8 inches) should be good enough for my purposes. In the end it really is a moot point given how significant a role mouthpiece and, to an extent, bell taper plays in the definition of a "cornet tone" (or at least a darker tone than a trumpet).

History of Pitch <

Apr 14th, 2014,

"In 1917, the American Federation of Musicians pressed for a standard pitch at A=440. The Annual Piano Technicians Conferences attempted the same from 1916 through 1919."


Reply #1 - Apr 14th, 2014,

C=523.3 is close to C=523.25 which is the C equivalent of A=440.

So, I wonder why some of the low pitch instruments seem to be under 440?


Reply #2 - Apr 14th, 2014,

According to the Kessels 1915 catalog

The new standard A=870

Old French A=868

Old (English) A=902

Also normal A=888

High pitch (Vienna) A=921.7


Reply #3 - Apr 15th, 2014,

One thing to bear in mind is that 440hz was never the low end of what are considered low pitch instruments. Most brass started out long ago well below 440, The French produced many instruments at 432 and below and actively promoted the lower pitches as standard. It didn't come off. These instruments still crop up now and then. I'm sure that a lot of instruments have been modified by their owners to play in pitches other than they were designed for, which contributes to cranky tone scales and exaggerated sharps and flats where they need not have been so bad in the original design. By this time these instruments are old and shabby and present no problems to the collector. Although some ensembles are reverting to the more correct pitches when playing authentic period pieces. In modern times 440 was put forward to ease the demands on Operatic singers and to reverse the trend to higher pitches made popular by the brass and wind bands. The battle goes on today. Sort of a musical version of people trying to outshout each other. There is really no grounds whatsoever for any particular universal pitch other than to keep musicians across the world in tune with one another.


Reply #5 - Apr 16th, 2014,

"A standard of A=435 was established by a French Commission in 1859, and in 1887 this was formally adopted by the Vienna Congress, an international conference on musical pitch."

So the international "Low Pitch" at A=435 was established in 1887. Then the new "Low Pitch" at A=440 was established by the AFM in 1917.

My 1907 Conn double-bell baritone made for Simone Mantia was built to A=435.

Musical Quarterly discussion:

http://books.google.com/books?id=d145AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA588&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=AC

Reply #4 - Apr 15th, 2014,

Keeping musicians in tune with one another is no small thing. But it is also true that some bands - the Civil War bands come to mind, certainly do play in the period pitches - although I don't know that it so much to replicate the original music as it is to make instrumentation easier - i.e., the horns found are in high pitch so rather than convert the instruments - play at high pitch.

My ear isn't so attuned to hear the difference between a band playing at 446 vs 440, but I do hear a difference between a Bb trombone and the trombone I cut down to play in C. So, I can appreciate that a brass band playing at 440 is going have a different timbre than one playing at 446.

So, that horn was made after Mantia left Sousa and before he joined Metropolitan Opera Orchestra in 1908. Was he still with Pryor at that time, do you suppose?

Makes me wonder what pitch Sousa and Pryor tuned to.


Reply #7 - Apr 17th, 2014

I have no reason to believe that he wasn't still with Pryor. Hence a Pryorphone, but made by Conn, not Holton.

A "Pryorphone" was no more than a Holton double-bell with large bell forward. My double-bell Conn baritone has its large bell forward. Of course, probably had nothing to do with it, but still makes for a great handle...

I've wondered about pitch, too. I had to make new shorter HP tuning slides to use it with modern ensembles and instruments. (imagine what it was like using it with a 443 orchestra for Bydlo, let alone just 440!)

Still, it's only one example, and with a removable bell, I have to consider that it may have been replaced or at least provided with 2 bells. The removable bell joint is above that of the Wonderphones, so if it was replaced with a Wonderphone bell it would, in fact, be too long.

Bottom line is that there was confusion for +-25 years.

That's why I found the AFM fork interesting!